Michael_A Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Well it seems the forum polizei banned my last post because I dared to mention another manufacturer. I was not promoting this product or the manufacturer, and if it was perceived that way, would be in a negative light anyway! Grow up Hornby, other manufacturers compliment each other and accept the fact that competition is healthy. Or shall I just switch completely to the other? If this stays on here, the issue is that when I try and programme a loco on the proghramming track, a loco on the main track which is blue and made up of six cars with the name Pullman in it, manufactured recently, runs away like crazy while the Elite is trying to programme. None of my other locos, not all of which are Hornby but most are, sit there perfectly happy. Also I hve two old Hornby Jintys, both of which are chipped and I programmed new address codes, although still working perfectly on DCC, cannot be readdressed. Any ideas friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Sorry was meant to say ALL not NONE of my other locos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Turn off DC running in CV29 and your problem with runaways will be solved. With you locos that don't program, try gentle pressure on them when programming after first making sure the wheels etc are quite clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 We did warn you Michael. Hornby are quite entitled to delete threads, it's their forum and they don't interfere with what we say unless we break the rules. There are other forums where you can discuss anything to do with model railways, warts and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Fishy, isn't it best for the programme track to be a completely separate thing not even attached to the layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 walkingthedog said: Fishy, isn't it best for the programme track to be a completely separate thing not even attached to the layout. From what I understand that is being discussed elsewhere the dcc decoder fitted to th elong blue unmentionable thing has compatibility issue with the Elite. Have a look on ar em webb 4 umm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Eh? I wouldn't have thought any (normal) decoder should have compatibility problems with the Elite. This thread is referring to the programming track. Michael has a loco that dashes off when he is programming another loco. I was asking if the programming track should be completely separate from the main layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes, preferably keep it separate, either by means of two insulated fish plates or totally physically separate. I recently bought a wheel cleaner which includes a piece of track and is ideal for doubling up as a programming track. I can then also connect it to my running track for cleaning purposes with two crocodile clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Do DCC controllers have a main output to the layout plus a separate one to the programming track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog RJ Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 walkingthedog said: Do DCC controllers have a main output to the layout plus a separate one to the programming track. Some do and some don't. For instance, the Hornby Elite does but Select doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 If it does wouldn't it be advisable to switch off the supply to the layout when programming to prevent the problem that Michael is having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 If I could summarise, then expand a little. Controllers usually have separate track and programming outputs. The exception is the basic Select controller. Also, programming and running must be kept separate, with some exceptions where programming is done on the main. The simple way to set this up is to have an isolated siding for programming, but then have a double pole double throw switch so the isolated part can be connected to either track output or programming output. So you can drive your brand new DCC loco into the siding from where you put it on the track (using the default 03 address, explaining why you don't leave any other loco on this address), switch to programming output, program the loco to new address etc, switch back to track and drive out. In general when you are programming, everything connected will get the same programming signal and so get programmed. This is the reason for having a separate programming track. When programming with Select, everything except what is being programmed must be removed from the layout, a major pain once you have more then a very few locos. So there should be no problem running things on the layout while programming another on the programming track. But in this instance, we do have a problem, in fact a couple of problems which may be related. Runaways are usually caused by a loco decoder getting a degraded DCC signal, interpreting it to be DC not DCC, then in DC mode taking off flat out as full track voltage is always present in DCC. So when this happens, there is a question about DCC signal quality. The way to fix the runaway is simple (unless you are using Select). DC running is enabled in one of the bits in CV29. This is a special CV that covers something different in each bit. The instructions on turning DC running off are in the Elite manual. We also know that 2 locos won't program. The most likely common problem is going to be be dirty track, wheels etc. clearly it isn't so dirty that nothing will run, but things aren't quite right. When just the main track is being powered, everything seems to work ok. However, when the programming track is also taking power, now we start to see the problem. Track signal is degraded slightly, and programming track output, which is lower power than main anyway, isn't sufficient to get signals through to 2 0-6-0 locos. So like I said in my first post but without the explanation why, turn off DC running so decoders seeing bad signal do nothing, not take off. Then clean all the track and wheels and everything should improve anyway. And when programming 0-6-0s, apply a little pressure with your hand if you are having problems, and things may magically improve. Anyway, that's what I think the problem might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 How did I learn all this stuff? I have this dreadful habit of reading manuals, these forums, sometimes other forums and useful sites like Brian Lambert, DCCWiki and a couple of others. Took me quite some months after getting back in the hobby before I thought I had a reasonable idea of how it all works, so keep reading guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Interesting fishy even to a DC person like me. What you have said is, to me, obvious. If I were using DCC I would have done exactly as you described with a double throw/pole switch or have a section of track mounted on a piece wood for programming. This is just basic wiring practice. Maybe this sort of thing should be made clear to new users before getting into the more complicated facets of DCC. Or maybe it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I was thinking of you writing that WTD, and I know the switching arrangement is second nature to you being a DC user. The Elite manual covers that the programming track must be separate, may even cover the switching arrangement, can't remember and I haven't got immediate access to it to check right now. It's certainly covered by Brain Lambert. But he covers so much, first time readers won't necessarily pick up on it at first reading, especially if they are non-technical people. It takes a while for it all to sink in. Just ask PJ, but he's getting there slowly. He knows to ask the questions, so he keeps getting the answers to add to his knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graskie Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I have the Elite, of course, but never realised there was yet another Select deficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Thanks folks. For clarity, it is an elite with a completely separate isolated length of programming track connected to the programme outputs. And only the blue thing tears away, the other 5 locos sitting on the main track don't move. I can turn off DC running, but it still shouldn't do it. I might check what decoders are fitted and take it up with the company in Liverpool I bought it from. As for the locos that I cant re-address, I will try again with a direct connection to the pick ups via croc leads and then reply. (other locos can be programmed quite happily on this length of programming track, but take the point re dirty wheels, even though they run smoothly on the main layout) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Michael, first thing they'll suggest to you is to clean the track and wheels as this is not an unusual problem. And because it's not unusual, the standard advice is also to turn off DC running, in all of your locos. Having just been checking the Elite manual for something else, you do it by adding 4 to the value in CV 29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Michael_A said: For clarity, it is an elite with a completely separate isolated length of programming track connected to the programme outputs. And only the blue thing tears away, the other 5 locos sitting on the main track don't move. I can turn off DC running, but it still shouldn't do it. I might check what decoders are fitted and take it up with the company in Liverpool I bought it from. That said - if you programme using the wrong mode (i.e. Operate) then instead of the instructions going to the isolated prog track, they will be routed to the main. In that case however even though the instructions to the main are directed to a specific address usually for a specific purpose like adjusting acc/del or fuel uplift, etc, any foul up could/would be mis-interpreted by any/all other decoders especially those known to be a tad flaky in their spec, like the early Hornby decoders and obviously the long blue one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pidder Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Much simpler with my little Select which I "double-contact" switch to either the main track or the separate programming track, so long as I remember to throw the switch...Perhaps the solution for Michael would be a switch to turn off the circuit to the main track while he's programming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 That's what I've done, too. My programming track is disguised as part of the 'junk-yard', and I use a two-pole change-over switch to energize it, and the other side to disconnect the main layout, so there is NO voltage, data, or anything there while I'm fiddling with a new chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted October 28, 2013 Author Share Posted October 28, 2013 I appreciate the discussion about change over switches etc, however, the whole point of having seperate operating and programming track outputs on the Elite is that you shouldn't have to do this. It's masking the problem, not curing it, and you lose a key benefit of being able to operate your layout while programming other locos / accessories. Given the way the decoder chips are behaving in the 6 car blue thingy, I have rejected it and will be returning it to the supplier. I will not accept a new product that will only operate if I disable DC running, as this means I cannot run it on our club layouts, which are not DCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Mike, you may see putting in an isolating switch as masking the problem - I look on it as insurance! I have about 20 DCC loco's on track, and I don't fancy having to reprogramme them all, because of the lack of a switch costing £2. Agreed - it shouldn't be necessary, and probably isn't, but I believe in a 'belt and braces' approach! Is your house insured? You don't intend to burn it down, but..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Everybody makes a mistake sometimes no matter how clever you think you are. It only takes a second to take your eye off the ball and muck everything up. Only the other day I clicked yes instead of no on my Brennan music hard drive and deleted 700 CD's from its data base. Luckily I'd backed it up on another disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 And again for insurance, I still recommend turning off DC running in all of your locos while using them on your layout, and only turn it on again when you take the locos to use at the club. It only takes one runaway caused by dirty track to make a big mess, even launch itself off the layout in a worst case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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