New to Hornby

[scott_atkinson]

Hello

Im new to Hornby iv always wanted to have my own set but never had the room or the money.  That now has changed :)

That said I do not have lots of money, so i was wondering that if i start on a none DCC set uphow easy is it to convert to a DCC set up.  I feel the web site is very lacking in this information, so i was hopeing someone can answer me some questions.

1. Can you use the same tracks for both the DCC and None DCC setup

2. How do i convert from none DCC to DCC

3. Will both none DCC and DCC work together

4. What would everyone advice on the subject should i spend more and get less and start with DCC or spend less and get more with None DCC

Thanks in advanced for all who reply.

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Scott, welcome to the forums and the hobby. Not surprisingly, there are a range of opinions on this one. Some still say start DC and upgrade to DCC later. Some longtime DC users who don't intend to upgrade due to cost will still suggest new starters should go DCC being the way of the future. Pretty much all DCC users will tell you to start DCC. I'm one of those. 

So first to answer your questions, then some initial things to think about. 

DC and DCC use the same track. But you certainly can't have a DCC controller and a DCC controller connected to it at the same time. 

To convert, you remove the DC controller and connect a DCC controller. You must use a DCC power clip or power track to do that, they are different to the DCC ones. And you need to install DCC point clips to each of your points so the DCC power goes to your entire layout all of the time. So not a major change In terms of an established layout. 

It is possible to run DCC and DCC locos together but in practice not a good idea. If you try to run a DC loco on a DCC layout, you will eventually burn out the motor in the loco, particularly if you leave it sitting on the layout not running. You can run a DCC loco on a DC layout, but you lose all the advantages of DCC when you do this. 

So my advice - start DCC. If you do that, you have 3 choices of Hornby controller. The entry level is the Select. It is cheap but in my opinion also very limited in capability. If you go this way, you will soon be upgrading and using your old Select as a door stop, a job it is also unsuited for as it is too light. The full function Hornby DCC controller is the Elite, much more expensive but still better value. 

Then there is another way if computer control appeals to you. That is Railmaster (RM) which only operates via a PC. Many swear by this but others say they have spent enough time looking at screens and they want real knobs to play with anyway. Elite works with RM if you go this way initially then upgrade to RM later. Select doesn't work with RM.  You can then run either from the Elite knobs or the RM screen. 

Then there is the newer eLink which is just an interface between RM and your track. You can only operate from the screen this way, there being no knobs on eLink. Many have started this way, although some find it difficult to understand first up. 

What you buy first overall is also an issue. Many start with a set, including a DCC set. The problem is there are no sets with Elite, you can only get them with Select of eLink. I started with the Select mixed freight set. But if I were doing it now, and knew a lot of what I now know, I'd probably start with one of the 2 eLink sets. 

If you are now interested in DCC, the first thing to do is some reading on it. There is some starting advice in the DCC section of this website. But another very good site on it is Brian Lambert's at http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html. There are two pages to this section of his site, shown by the little arrow in the DCC button at the top left. So remember to go look at the second page too. 

[Graskie]

I think you've been eating to much fish, Fishy. Brilliant advice but you could be confusing Scott with obviously inadvertant misrefences to DC and DCC in your earlier paragraphs. I would just add, Scott, that what you are call non-DCC (Digital Command Control) is in fact DC (Direct Current) or analogue.

[alan_lewis2]

Also seek advice from your local model shop, but then do not go and buy from ebay as next time the advice might not be so helpful.

[RDS]

My advice: Start DCC.

[Flashbang]

Hi

To answer your questions in order.....

1. Can you use the same tracks for both the DCC and None DCC setup

Yes. The track is the same for both systems.

2. How do i convert from none DCC to DCC

Most if not all locos that are dc only can be converted. Some are very easy others (mainly older locos that are not DCC Ready) need more work.  Any dc loco labelled as 'DCC Ready' is fairly easy to convert. Just open the body, remove the dc running blanking plug and fit a suitable decoder of choice in its place.  For track power you simply replace all the dc controller(s) with one DCC system. If there are two or more dc controllers you link together the wiring to all the left hand rails and do the same for the other right hand rails, so as all tracks are powered from the one DCC source.  Note only one DCC console is allowed to be connected to the rails.

3. Will both none DCC and DCC work together

Yes and No!  You most not allow a dc controller to connect to a DCC system.  You can normally run DCC Fitted locos on dc powered rails safely so long as the dc controller isn't PWM or Feedback type.  Some DCC systems allow one dc unfitted loco to run on the DCC powered rails under address number 0. But this is not a recommended practice.  If a non DCC fitted loco (dc only loco) is left stationary on DCC powered rails there is a high risk of the motor burning out!

4. What would everyone advice on the subject should i spend more and get less and start with DCC or spend less and get more with None DCC

If you have no dc locos at present and are starting from scratch, then I would recommend going digital from the beginning. While Digital may seem complex, if you take it in step by step stages of learning you will soon master the basics and quickly begin to understand how it works and how its adjustable to suit various types of locos and layouts.   Secondly always buy the best DCC system you can afford.  

[Michael_A]

Just one minor point to add to the very concise responses above.

It's worth having a small (seperate and completey isolated from your DCC layout) DC test track, as it can be very hard to fault find DCC locos, and running them in / testing on DC can be much quicker than trying to resolve DCC issues. If your loco runs fine and smoothly on DC, you have already eliminated many potential faults.

For this reason I never turn off DC running on my decoders, even though a lot of people recommend it. If you get a 'runaway' (loco speeds off with no control) on DCC, then there is something that in any case needs attention, in fact, a runaway is a good indication some maintenance is required (Can be dirty track, wheels, pick ups, other faults, including an indication of the impending death of the decoder)

[gilbo2]

I guess everyone has their own preferences. In my early DCC days I remember testing a DCC loco on DC using an old H&M power supply. Trouble is, this old controller allows you to quickly go from one direction to another,and "pop", lost my first decoder!

Since then I always switch off DC in CV29 and actually sold my old power supply. Decoders too expensive to keep popping for me.

Again, against best practice, all I do now for a new loco, as long as I hear the motor buzz on DCC prior to conversion, I will then fault find in the DCC world. I like challenges but not too bad once you have a dedicated DCC programming track, only put on the main track when able to program / read CV's  and generally familiar with the technology :-)

[francis_robinson]

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html

I too am new to modelling, and have found so much conflicting info, but thanks to this website things have become clearer.

If I was to give Hornby any advice, it would be to employ this person and post this website as advice and info on model railway building.

 

[idlemarvel]

Indeed, Mr Lambert is the daddy when it comes to dcc, I've lost track of the times I've used his site for solid info

[Michael_A]

erm, it does say not to do that dgilbert2 ;)

I have the Hornby HM2000. Have to say, it's a lovely DC controller, has a real feel of quylity about the controls. Sometimes it's nice to turn a knob and see the results rather than the horrible unresponsive controls on the Elite (why did they do that, the Select has a much nicer control knob?), or pushing sliders on a screen :)

I have had one decoder go pop (the dreaded wisp of smoke and that horrible burning smell) while wiggling the loco trying to get it moving on DCC. I fitted a new decoder and let it run on DC for 30 mins to get the wheels and pick ups clean again before sitting it back on DCC.

[gilbo2]

That's why I made certain I could not do it again :-)

The old H&M was just a central "click" so extremely easy and quick to change direction in one turn on the control knob.

[poliss]

Do I understand correctly that you fitted a decoder and then ran the loco on DC Michael?

[Michael_A]

I have a DC test track which I use to test DCC fitted locos that don't work or run properly on DCC as this tests they actually run, and eliminates many potential decoder / address issues. I also run in new non DCC locos on this track before fitting decoders, as well as new DCC fitted locos, and locos that run hesitatntly on DCC to clean the wheels and pick ups.

This is why I never disable DC runing on my decoders, I find it helpful to fault find using DC.

 

 

[poliss]

I don't see the need to run a DCC loco on DC. I turn off DCC for two reasons. It prevent problems with runaways and also makes the response from the controller faster.

  You clean the wheels and pick-ups by hand?

[Michael_A]

Reasons as described.

Sometimes, I have a cleaning brush. Again I use DCcontroller.

[poliss]

One more reason to use DCC only. The track stays cleaner for longer.

[morairamike]

This thread is really confusing for a newcomer, it is full of answers that either have self corrected or were not proof read before posting. See below

DC and DCC use the same track. But you certainly can't have a DCC controller and a DCC controller connected to it at the same time  Surely this should read DC controller and DCC controller

It is possible to run DCC and DCC locos together but in practice not a good idea. Hang on but that's the point of DCC, run many locos not just one. 

I don't see the need to run a DCC loco on DC. I turn off DCC for two reasons. It prevent problems with runaways and also makes the response from the controller faster. Again shouldn't this be I turn OFF DC, CV29 disable enables DC not DCC.

Maybe I am being picky but misinformation is worse than no information.

 

[Michael_A]

Its confusing for me as well. I post one thing, and then it gets read as something different.

Using a DC test track solely to aid fault finding, cleaning and running in seems to have been completely mixed in with my DCC running.

So no wonder people get confused!

[poliss]

You're right morairamike. I meant to say 'I turn DC off', not 'turn DCC off'. Big Oops there. :-o

Even if you're only using DC for a DCC fitted loco on a test track, you're still using the decoder. I don't see any way that would aid in fault finding.

There's nothing stopping you from giving advice kiwi3685. What advice would you give to someone just starting out?

[Graskie]

I pointed out Fishy's confusion with the terms DC and DCC earlier in this thread. Knowing him, I'm sure he really knows what he's on about, just slipped up on his terminology accidentally and might well now comment on this matter.

[Graskie]

Even poliss is doing it, so it must be an easy mistake to make. I've seen DDC before now on a sales website.

[Fishmanoz]

Yep, that first mistake from the list was mine, as Graskie noted too. Really annoyed with myself when I saw it and nothing to do about it. 

And I only test DC without a decoder and before I install one, don't personally see any added complication in fault finding with one. Can always swap the decoder itself to eliminate any affect from it if necessary. 

[Michael_A]

I'm tired of trying to explain. Last comment and I'm away.

If a DCC fitted loco that wont run on DCC runs on DC you immediately know it is not a fault with dirty wheels, pickups, motor, wiring etc etc.

If same loco that works fine on DC then does not respond on DCC, you have eliminated all but the decoder and associated DCC addressing.

I dont know how else to put it.

Byeee.......