Decoder compatability

[Michael_A]

First of all I have read and accept the terms relating to promoting non Hornby products, so no lectures please ;)

However, being realistic, we know that Hornby DCC is used with other manufacturers locomotives and decoders, plus, Hornby don't even make a 6 pin decoder.

So my question is, when we use competitors products with our (wonderful) Hornby DCC systems, how do we overcome the fact that some competitor decoders are not compatable with RailMaster and e-link?

I am talking specifically (sorry to say) about Bmann locos that I want to run in conjunction with my Hornby control system and alongside my Hornby locomotives.

Some of these are fitted with a 21 pin decoder (I think 36-557) or a 6 pin (36-558A) that can only be written to with an Elite in register mode (Which is great if you have an Elite, which I have) However, if I change to elink, which I was thinking of doing, do I then have to replace the decoder with a Hornby Saphire at over 35 pounds?

For locos that use a 6 pin socket, Hornby don't even offer a decoder, so now I have no choice but to ue a non compatible non Hornby decoder with RailMaster, unless I don't run my loco on a Hornby controlled system, which I am sure they would not really want. (Besides, I am sure it woul be anti-competetive to design a system that can only work with Hornby products)

I have searched th eforums and seen a couple of posts on the 36-557 decoder (which I myself have added to) but this is a more generic topic of compatabilty.

It would be really nice if there was a compatability list of all decoders, loco and accessory, that have been tested and REALLY work with RailMaster and elink

 

[poliss]

I can't see anything in the decoder documentation that says you have to use Register Mode to programme the decoders.

The only Hornby DCC controller that may have problems programming decoders of US manufacture is the Select.

[RDS]

I cannot help with e-link compatibility but I am surprised to read that you think it may be different to Elite.

I run many BMann loco's on my system without any problems, although I do have Elite in conjunction with RailMaster, not e-link.

Incidentally, If you already have Elite, I cannot understand why you would want to take a backward step to e-link. (Reasons for saying backward step) are: 1) Lower Current Output on the e-link Power Suppy. 2) No knobs or display on e-link.  3) Control of your layout has to be completely under computer control, with no chance to operate loco's manually.  I think e-link is a very cost effective way for someone to start to get into DCC but (although some people are very happy to have changed) Elite, with or without RailMaster is far more flexible.

 

[Fishmanoz]

By rights, all DCC equipment is made to the same NMRA specification which should ensure there are no compatibility issues. There are well known exceptions such as Select which are not compliant. 

The number of pins on the decoder should not be a problem. I believe you can buh conversion harnesses and, even without, take a look at the Brian Lambert site to see the pin configurations which should allow you to direct wire the decoder without a problem. 

I've seen the talk about the 36-557 and can only conclude it isn't compliant. I again ask HRMS to comment on its RM compatibility. Note, RM compatibility, not eLink compatibility, eLink simply being the track interface. 

[poliss]

Their website says the 36-557 is conforms with NMRA specs, but it's not listed as having a warrant on the NMRA website.

[Yelrow]

RDS, may i put the case for the defence of Elink.  With a 4 amp supply, is the output lower. If you want to run several locos at same time, much quicker on elink. PJ, specially bought a touch screen laptop, for ease of control. What is the fascination of having something to twiddle. My layout is on the screen,, but all locos controlled manually with a mouse. All this is tongue in cheek, but i dont know many people who have gone back  from elink to Elite. I do know several who have both, who, they feel they have the best of both worlds. On my DC layout, i have 15  knobs to turn, both ways. RSI beckons, but i suppose it also does with a mouse. john

[idlemarvel]

May not help specifically but I have successfully programmed B'mann 8 pin decoders (36-552) with eLink and RM.

I don't normally use B'mann decoders but they came fitted in a DMU I acquired.

BTW Hornby sound locos use non-Hornby decoders (ESU I think) as Hornby don't make sound decoders, and RM recognises other manufacturer decoders when reading CVs, including ESU, TCS and B'mann, so I think they are trying their best to be open to the loco decoder market, as they are (perhaps out of necessity) for accessory decoders.

[St1ngr4y]

I have Elite + RM, but I never use the knobs on the Elite to control locos. I occasionally use them to change one particular signal. Everything else is through RM, mainly by running programs I have created.

Ray

[Graskie]

Now, this is an incredible co-incidence. Michael. You have helped me enormously with a problem I have been working on for some weeks now.

I recently bought a class 108 2 car DMU that had been fitted with sound in the power unit. The non-powered unit still had a B*mann decoder in it for lighting purpose on function 0, though. When received, they were both set to default ID 03, which all worked. However, I tried changing both units to a preferred 4 digit ID to match my system. No problems with the powered unit but I just couldn't read or write to the other one which still operated, though, on 03. I tried different double and quadruple IDs on the latter, but still to no avail.

Eureka! Thanks to you, Michael, I tried Register Mode on my Elite, still couldn't read the offending car's ID, so I tried to rewrite it as a 4 digit ID. That didn't work, so I then attempted a double digit number 50 and.....voila! I have now reset the powered unit to 50 as well, so they both work together now with the same rewritten ID.

I still can't believe it, but I think it really adds a piece of very relevant practical experience to this thread.

[Michael_A]

Well I am delighetd my post has helped Graskie. If this forum helps just one person, then it's worth it. I found any 2 digit address works, and I also changed acceleration and deceleration succesfully too.

Re swapping elite for e-link, the only reason was for space. I think though on refelction (and reading the comments) I must have had a moment of madness to consider it. I will keep the Elite!

As for Bmann decoders, the earlier ones were fine. I think the problems started with the 36-557.

 

[poliss]

Could be because the decoders aren't made by them, but by Soundtraxx.

Try contacting their support team.

[Fishmanoz]

Would still like an HRMS comment too. 

[Graskie]

Yes, keep your Elite, Michael. It's a much more versatile combination with MS. I know I'm keeping mine. I also like twiddling knobs if I occasionally prefer to do that.

I think what has happened is that those who bought the Elite before RM are generally advised and are more likely to retain it, rather than switch to eLink. Those going for PC control since are more inclined to buy the cheaper combination, never having experienced the advantages of the Elite. Fair enough, I can well understand that but............

[Yelrow]

I want to know how people, who have not used an elink with laptop, can decide , without trying it, that elite is so much more versatile. Keep your elite, Michael, but add an elink to the  system. You then have the best of all worlds. i would love to add the elite, as others have to my elink system, but eating  is more important, and despite an extensive search, cannot find one at a sensible price. john

[Fishmanoz]

John, what your eLink gets you is an interface between RM and your track. The capability it gives you is the RM capability. 

Those with Elite who have bought RM get exactly the same capability using RM as eLink/RM. It simply can't be otherwise. 

But those with this Elite/RM arrangement can still operate directly from Elite using its knobs and switches and it's additional programming and running modes not available with RM. This is the basis on which it can be asserted that Elite is more versatile. It's an indisputable fact, not supposition. 

And it is also clear that the only possible benefit for those with Elite and RM in buying eLink is that they can split there overall layout arrangements into two and run one part with Elite/RM and the other part with eLink/RM.  For most though, the benefit from this will be marginal, if any benefit at all. 

Now I will admit that there is one other technical difference between eLink and Elite that I have ignored in what I have said above, and this is the higher communications baud rate that is possible with eLink. This may assist some users who are running intensive operations on their layout under program control. The advantage will be that commands can be passed to the track at a higher rate. 

[Michael_A]

Not to mention (back to the original topic) the benefits of using an Elite in register and direct mode, allowing prgramming of some decoders RailMaster and elink can't

[Yelrow]

Okay, then can someone explain the additional programming and running modes that  i have not got with elink. Is the programming only to do with decoders. What are us elink guys missing out on. Up to now, the only benefit i could see was the hands on effect, using the control nobs. If it does a lot more, then the expense, may be justified, john

[St1ngr4y]

Hi John,

The programming which the elite can do, but the elink/RM can't, is to change cv's on certain loco decoders. I'm not sure what you mean by running modes. Apart from that, yes, the provision of control knobs is the only other advantage of the elite. Now that I've heard that the elink has a higher baud rate on its USB link than the elite, I am seriously thinking of changing my elite for an elink. This will give me also an extra copy of RM, so that I can be brave and have the layout controlled by two networked computers!

As I mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, I don't use the elite's knobs anyway.

Ray

[Yelrow]

Hi, Ray, it was fishy that said, additional running modes, i just want to know what they are.When you say you would have elink, you mean you would buy the package for a second RM, as RAF, and several others use their elite for the locos, and elink with RM, for points, programs, etc. You would i presume just have to pay £9.99, for additional computer.. If the only advantage of the elite,. john is for a few decoders, it seems a heck of an expense. Surely better to stick with acceptable decoderes

[Graskie]

What's the best thing to do, though, if, like me, you bought an Elite before RM came along? And bought that Elite in preference to the more limited Select controller? I really can't see myself switching to an eLink system, even if the bored rate (lol) is faster. So far, I have found the Elite as fast as I would wish. Anyway, please don't ignore any advantages of the Elite operating with RM, or even on its own. Most positive points regarding it have been mentioned and it should be appreciated that these amount to more than one. Nobody has mentioned the 4 amp power supply instead of just 1 amp, for instance.

In the case of my DMU cars, I could not have anticipated that the non-powered car would include what initially appeared to be a totally unresponsive decoder in Standard Mode, presumably 6 pin (perhaps even the one mentioned). But fortunately, only by using the Elite in Register Mode (which you can't access with eLink) I was able to follow Michael's advice, which corrected the problem.

So, with the Elite you have:

4amp power supply

2 knobs to twiddle, even in conjunction with running different locos on RM. You could therefore have one operator on the Elite at the same time as another is using RM.

You can program locos on the Elite as an alternative to RM (which is what I still do out of habit).

You can read and write CVs with it.

You can run several other operating Modes on it, which cannot be done on eLink.

I'm certainly not denigrating the use of eLink and might even have started with that myself if it had existed at the time I went digital. It's horses for courses and the eLink certainly has a very competitive price tag, but please don't say that the Elite is not worth having as a much more flexible system.

[Graskie]

Phew! Good job I kept on saving the above as I wrote it. When I went to post it, I had been logged out. That shouldn't happen, should it? After all that literary effort?  A lot of good advice could go begging because someone did not wish to rewrite it all, although, you can always, of course, go back to the previous page to see it, which not a lot of people pehaps know but which has been pointed out several times before on this forum.

[Fishmanoz]

Forget about additional running modes, I was getting carried away. It's only programming modes. 

John, forget about modes, they are of marginal utility in my view. Just stick to knobs. And very expensive knobs they are at the additional price. 

In my view, having bought either one of Elite or elink,very few will see the need to buy the other. 

[Michael_A]

So I wonder how folks without an Elite programme the newer Bmann Soundtrax decoders. Either by luck they aren't using them, or for whatever reasons, aren't having issues. Would love to know!

[Graskie]

I must admit, this was the first time I'd had trouble with a B*mann decoder, bearing in mind it is probably only a 6 pin one. Usually I have 21 pins on them and most have been fitted or replaced with dedicated sound decoders. I don't really want to open up my dummy car just to see exactly what is in there. If I take something to bits, it often stays like for for a long time!

[AndrewB1959]

I don't think it's the type of chip rather that the ELink can not handle sound chips current drain on the program track.

I live in the USA and a lot of my trains are US locos with sound. I use the DCC specialties PowerPax between the ELink and the programming track and have no issues.

After programing the trains they run fine on the track with sound with the ELink and the 4amp power supply