Tech Specs - and skills needed

[Fishmanoz]

I don't blame HRMS a for leaving themselves some wriggle room in that statement, but surely their intent in making it is clear. The same could be said about a new dedicated laptop, although the chances of it not working will be low too. 

And I need to correct a mistake I made in my last. The DCC supplement of the May 2014 issue of Hornby Modeller magazine tells us it is 48 detectors per LD a module, not 24, and a maximum of 106 different tags can be identified by the system at any one time. 

[Cowplain]

In anticipation of LD I intend looking for a "high quality active (powered) USB hub," as my laptop has just three USB ports being used for WiFi Mouse, WiFi Headset and of course ELink. I obviously do not want to purchase a hub and find it is not up to the task.

I would be grateful if anybody could advise me on a suitable brand (I live in UK) and any other relevant technical details.

[RB51]

Looks as though the first post for "Technical Specifications" or perhaps "Techincal Suggestions" has beeen posted. I dont know the answer Cowplain, but I am many others will be intereseted in the response/s. R-

[Yelrow]

Hi, Roger, should be questions now that the spec is known. I think HRMS, should give us some options, as i for one would hesitate to make a recommendation, as mine did not work. but there may be some brave people out there.If you remember, when a high quality usb was mentioned, Raven Electrics was talking in tems of £65. Mine is still the one that came supplied. john

[RB51]

Caramba! Thats expensive. Cheaper than a laptop I know but you would want to know it was going to work properly. R-

[Yelrow]

thats the point about the hub, john

[Fishmanoz]

HRMS a, a comment from you would be good here. What limitations must be met by a hub to make its ports suitable to allow RM to operate properly? Some research tells me that the relevant factors are power and speed, not to mention the ability to transmit the signal cleanly and without any degradation?

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

Fishmanoz, you have answered your own question.  We cannot recommend a particular USB hub simply because a good quality hub which works on one PC may not work on another.  Some hubs work well with USB 1 and 2 ports on a PC and others work better with a USB 3 port.  Fortunately, legislation in the UK allows you to purchase these devices and if they do not work you return them.  It is highly unlikely that this would be the case for good USB hubs.

Remember what a hub is doing, it is splitting the complex digital signal on multiple USB inputs and passing it into a single native USB port to the PC.  It is not like connecting to wires in parallel.  There is clever electronics and algorithms going on in the hub.  It is very similar to the way a network switch works and they can cost from £30 to £200 for an 8-port example and there is a reason for the price difference.

As mentioned before, it needs to be an active hub, that is, comes with it's own power supply to ensure the correct voltage and power on all USB devices connected to it.  Passive hubs, which take their power from the PC itself (through the USB port) are definitely not a good idea.

You also do not want to be getting a hub with many ports, e.g. 6+ because it has to do more work splitting the signal from those multiple ports to a single one.  Look at, say, a 4-port hub and no more.  This turns one USB port into four and even on a single USB PC will allow you DCC controller, mouse, headset and Loco Detection module.  Such a PC will have been very cheap in the first place and reflect the nature of the railway layout being used.

Now to clarify the use of ports by RailMaster:-

1. eLink or Elite requires one USB port.  If you have more than one USB port on your PC it is recommended that this device has its own port on your PC.

2. The Loco Detection module uses one USB port, however the data traffic is not as high as the DCC controller so this can go onto a USB hub.  In fact a second LDM can also go onto the same USB hub

3. Mice and keyboards have very little traffic and so can also go on a USB hub.

4. A good quality headset, with error-checking, should also work on a USB hub as it is a HID device (doesn't use a com port like the DCC controller and LDM do).

Thus, with a good quality, active USB hub, you should be able to get away with two native PC USB ports.

Some of you who have PCs with only one USB port will have machines that are either netbooks or PC tablets.  We have found that netbooks are under-powered machines, although do run RailMaster.  We have also found that Windows tablets are not so good because the USB port tends to be in a docking station/keyboard and we have found that they are not necessarily 100% Windows compatible, so have inherent problems with USB devices.

We cannot test every PC in the world, as you will appreciate, so you need to discern the above for yourself.  unfortunately, the world of hardware add-ons is not as clear-cut as it could be and there are incompatibilities and this has been the case since the dawn of computing.

Finally, regarding the technical specification of a PC, this is not the easiest thing to answer because some ten year old PCs running Windows XP actually work better than some modern PCs due to the way the hardware and drivers were matched at design time by the manufacturer.

We have always stated that RailMaster was designed specifically so that you do not have to go out and buy a fancy, expensive PC and this is still the case, even with Voice Control and Loco Detection, however obviously the latter two require more processing power than RailMaster alone.  It will all, though, still run on modest hardware and any new PC should be upto the job, with the provisos mentioned above for netbooks and tablets.

As mentioned previously, you should ensure that your Windows set-up is clean, that is that you delete temporary files regularl and defrag mechancial hard drives (not need for Solid State Drives).  Windows has its own functions to do these two things or you can download free programs like CCleaner, which do a very good job of removeing the rubbish on your PCs.  The question of which superlfuous programs you can delete from your PC is a job for you.  We will just say that many companies installing a great deal of "bloatware" onto PCs straight from the factory, so they are not as clean as you may think, and these days just installing a printer driver from a CD can install many other unnecessary programs which are designed solely to make more money out of you.

Hopefully, this finally answers your questions about hardware.

[RB51]

Thank you HRMS for a very comprehensive response to an area that is clearly causing some concern. The USB detail is now I think crystal clear. R-

[Yelrow]

HRMS, thanks, great detail, i am a little confused however, about  your comment that we should be able to get away with 2 Native pc, usb ports. Where do you plug in the usb for the HUB, surely, you will need 3 native pc usb ports. You cant use the native Ethernet, cos the  internet cable ( if you are not wifi) takes that up, unless you have usb cabling from router, which i suppose could go into the hub, but Ethernet is the manufacturer becommendation. My laptop, only has 2, and we have already  spoken about my  hub, which was unsuitable. Perhaps you can clarify, unless, i an mistaken. john

[tony_forward]

john, 2 usb ports on a laptop? 1 for elink, 1 for the hub supporting mouse et al...

- I think! 

[Yelrow]

Tony, no, Loco Rec, has to have its own, 1 elink, 2 loco rec, into what port does the usb from the hub go, john

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

If you read our posting carefully you will see that the DCC controller should be plugged into one USB port on the PC and the USB hub into the other, assuming only two USB ports available.  Then everything else, including the Loco Detection module(s) can be plugged into the hub.

[tony_forward]

Pretty much what I said! Makes a change for me to get something right

[Yelrow]

well done tony, lets hope its the case john

[Augustus Caesar]

Wow... it seems that HRMS has had their work cut out here. They've saved me from typing pretty much the same stuff so thanks to them for that.

USB ports... yep... a PC or a laptop with TWO USB ports will run RM and much more added if, as HRMS have stated, if you buy a powered USB hub. Again buy one with no more than four ports so a PC or laptop that has two ports originally will now have 5... one original and the four port hub that plugs into one of the original USB sockets on your PC or laptop. IF you need more ports then buy two USB hubs, preferably the same, and plug each into an original port on the PC or laptop. Never plug a USB hub into another USB hub, powered or not. Two hubs here will give EIGHT ports. So plenty room for your needs.

A tip for you all... stay clear of cerulion hubs (Maplin's own make). I bought one and it kept shorting my wife's PC even when the tower was not switched on but was plugged into the wall socket and receiving electricity from that alone. It kept trying to start up the internal DVD drive!!! It was a powered hub and replaced with a different model... same thing! Now these have been withdrawn. If you can buy a four port powered hub with USB 2.0 specs then great. If you buy one with USB 3.0 specs MAKE SURE it is definitely capable of being backward compatible to USB 2.0. You will be surprised how many of these are not or say they are but aren't. The latter are rare so don't ponder on it. You shuldn't need to worry about USB 1.0 either... it's too old.

Dedicated laptops or whatever... if you have a laptop or PC you can use purely to operate RM alone and not use it for anything else then that's great. I have a ten inch Acer Windows 8 lappie (hate Win 8) which will run the layout. I have tested it until blue in the face and have no issues. I am lucky to have another laptop for other purposes with Windows 7 on it (hurrah) but the small one will still be removed from time to time from the layout. If you need to move the laptop or PC as such away from connecting to the layout then simply plug the USB cable from the Elite or Elink into the SAME socket you unplugged it from and you should have no immediate connection or RM cannot find port etc issues.

HRMS actually hit upon something I was going to mention a short while back but neglected to... when I have said make sure your machine is clean from bad malware, trojans, viruses and spyware you should also check for programs added during factory installation which will be taking up resources when you finally get it up and running first time. This is, as stated, called bloatware. What wasn't mentioned is that lots of this software is running in the background when Windows first starts. This can easily slow down your PC or laptop tremendously.

There is a very good reason for uninstalling these programs or, next best, stopping them running in the first place. A simple search on the net will inform you of how to stop these machine hogging utilities etc. Use things like 'how to stop a program running at Windows startup' or 'how do I uninstall a program in Windows *' (enter your Windows version number where the astrisk is).

There has been an awful lot of stuff written in this thread and I wil go back through it and digest it and see if I can come up with a possible sticky that HRMS or Admin will consider to put at the top of the pile for easy reading.

I've been unavailable for a couple of days on here so have just caught up with lots of things but will look through threads and see what can be posted where most folk may get some help or advice in what may become stickies... I'm not trying to be a clever clogs here folks.. far from it... I want to see and hear of folk enjoying RM, Elink and Elite just as much I want to so any help I or others can give, especially on the technical side, should hopefully go down well.

[RB51]

That sounds good to me AC. R-

[idlemarvel]

FYI I have purchased and tested a Belkin 4 port powered USB 2.0 hub, F5U404P-BLK, £15 from maplins.  It seemed a good compromise between the cheap stuff described by AC and the ridiculous prices asked for some USB hubs.  I have tested it with elink on one of the 4 ports and a USB webcam on another, taking video at the same time.  RM was running a series of programs involving loco movement and point switching, and it didn't seem to miss a beat.  Didn't seem to make a difference whether it was powered or not.  I'll do some more testing but okay so far.

For those who don't know, and I wasn't sure until I bought one, a powered USB hub is one that has its own external power supply, not drawing power from the laptop USB port.  Obvious I suppose.  I am guessing the "powered" bit doesn't matter with elink, as it has its own power, but maybe the loco detection module draws power from the USB?   Perhaps Hornby can comment.

Other USB hubs are available etc.

Admin edit: Please don't swear

[RB51]

Very useful to know - thanks for posting. R-

[Fishmanoz]

Just because the hub worked unpowered on one occasion doesn't mean it always will. From what HRMS has said, eLink needs most or all of the usual 500mA that comes from a USB port. If you have all 4 of the hub outputs connected to something, there may only be 100mA available for eLink and this is where the problems will start. It is irrelevant that eLink has its own power supply, the hub needs one too. 

[idlemarvel]

Hi fishy. I don't recollect HRMS saying that elink needs the power from the USB (although I stand or rather sit to be corrected on that) only that they recommend a powered hub.  That might be because they are assuming if you have a hub you will have other devices connected to it that do draw power, and it might get to an extent where the overall performance of the USB hub is affected.  After all why would you have a hub if the only thing connected to it was the elink?   (BTW I have been using my elink all day through the unpowered USB hub and I haven't had a problem, which is not to say I won't tomorrow but if I do I will report back.)

The outstanding question is this.  If I have a USB hub because I only have one USB 2.0 port on my laptop and I am planning that I need two USB ports at least for loco detection, and I am not planning on having any other USB devices atteched, I am just trying to ascertain whether the powered hub is required because the elink draws power from it (which I doubt) or whether a loco detection module will need to be powered by the USB (which is possible but I don't know).  Maybe I'm being pedantic but I would like to know.

It's not a big problem for me as I have now bought a hub capable of being powered athough it means yet another power point being used if it does have to be powered.

[Fishmanoz]

Idle, a standard USB port can deliver a current of 500mA. A 4-port passive hub only produces 100mA for each output. And I believe it does so whether all 4 outputs are loaded or not, although I'm not certain. I did some quick research on this in Wikipedia - just google USB hub And you can check for yourself.  

I take it from what HRMS is telling us that, notwithstanding eLink not drawing its power the the USB connection, it needs to see the full 500mA. This may not be the current itself, it may well be to do with the impedance it sees. This will be different from a passive hub port to that from a real USB and a powered hub port may well look more like this than a passive hub port. 

[Augustus Caesar]

USB hubs, non-powered, can only ever supply 100mA to each port on a four port hub. You won't see any hubs that are non-powered with more than four ports. The total current of that hub is 500mA. This is used as follows... 100mA taken from the original port on the laptop or PC the hub is connected to and uses to power itself and a further 100mA each for the four expansion ports and these cannot exceed the 100mA llimit... thus 500mA.

A mains self powered USB hub can use the full 500mA per port no matter how many ports are on the hub.

One must be careful not to use bus powered hubs, which don't need to be powered, as these can be quite annoying and may not be powerful enough to give power to the equipment needing to draw what is required even though they will draw all power for itself and the ports it has to offer to you. This is one simple reason why so many hubs cannot operate devices when they are plugged into a piece of equipment and the user doesn't realise they have a bus powered hub.

There is another type of powered hub... a dynamic powered hub. This is a device that intelligently switches between the two above and because of the latter description is not recommended for purposes that require mains power only.

One thing I have learned over the years with hubs is that I now never buy the compacted 'squared off' design of hubs where the four ports are arranged close together as in 2x2. I always buy the hubs with the ports strung out in a single line. The wiring inside is sturdier and far superior to the basic space saving devices for your desktop!

I hope this clarifies the power issue of hubs and what they can and cannot do under normal use. Some users modify the self powered hubs and add a second power supply to double the capacity and output. "Say what?" I hear you all cry... yes, it can be done. You have to be extremely careful and know exactly what you are doing and what parts of the internal circuitry you have to bridge so please do not try this at home! I would never do it personally and wouldn't even recommend it so just don't do it!