hosh Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 A block detection system will only ensure certain sections of your track are live or not, linked with points and signals.This would be less problamatic than LD but with less control. I can't understand how anyone thinks LD will be able to do things that BD can't.Care to give an example?BD needs -BlocksGood softwareThere is plenty of good free software out there and any "proper" layout should have blocks as well anyway. I really can't see the fuss - I must be missing something. Any sort of "detection for the masses" seems like a contradiction in terms to me. Detection is not a "for the masses" thing. Probably from either a purist point of view or a marketing one.On a real railway block detection (something is in it the block or not) is supplemented by the on-site loco driver who knows what loco he is driving, how fast it is going and where precisely in the block it is. LD adds all of those to BD. Simple! Not sure what PJ means by "Block Detection" with live and dead zones. My meaning is very simple - the entire layout is always live DCC but only the sections with locos in them draw current and are thus detected (by current detectors of course). Anyway -Control of loco speed, accelerate to (x), decelerate to (x), increase speed to (x), decrease speed to (x)More accurate stopping, every time in the same placeWhy can't BD do this? If I simply cut track and use plastic joiners I can have my BD points wherever I like! I have seen a product that can detect 16 such points for example. Do you fellows understand how easily software handles these chores? Again, LD could give -speeddirectionTrain IDBD needs none of this - it knows what train is expected in what block next, it knows what direction it came from and where it's headed and it knows it's speed because the software had already set it.The only thing BD needs to be told is what train is in what block at start up and what it's program is but even most LD systems would need to know certain things at startup also anyway. Personally, I think Hornby have recently realised the above and then pulled the plug on LD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetmanUK Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 @hoshI think you are missing the point. BD has no feedback other than something is in the block. Relying on speeds and timing set by the software are just not accurate enough to reliably position a loco at a specific point. LD provides that feedback. Also, it should be easy to retro fit LD (within reason) but BD is much more invasive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 ... I think you are missing the point ...With respect - I think you are all missing the point of this thread. The clue is in the title. (Just a DATE required) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Before taking RDS up on getting this thread back to its original purpose (there are a number of other places this discussion would be appropriate, including other LD threads), let me just say that I think we all understand there are alternative systems out there. Let me clarify that any of the BD solutions mentioned here cannot be additions to RM in its current form as RM has no idea what locos are where on its layout, it doesn't work that way. Such a BD solution can only be entirely non-Hornby. And tosh, sorry hosh, do we understand how easily software can do such tasks, of course we do. The software for full LD capability is already contained within RM and quite powerful. Then as for handling detection in 16 blocks, the LD specification as published is to handle up to 96 sensors placed wherever you like on your layout. And I accept that all of that potential capability is academic until actual hardware is available for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Before taking RDS up on getting this thread back to its original purpose (there are a number of other places this discussion would be appropriate, including other LD threads), let me just say that I think we all understand there are alternative systems out there. Let me clarify that any of the BD solutions mentioned here cannot be additions to RM in its current form as RM has no idea what locos are where on its layout, it doesn't work that way. Such a BD solution can only be entirely non-Hornby. And tosh, sorry hosh, do we understand how easily software can do such tasks, of course we do. The software for full LD capability is already contained within RM and quite powerful. Then as for handling detection in 16 blocks, the LD specification as published is to handle up to 96 sensors placed wherever you like on your layout. And I accept that all of that potential capability is academic until actual hardware is available for sale. So the problem is the basic logic (or lack thereof) of RM. I find it laughable to have software that requires hardware to tell it so much. As I have stated before, when it comes to anything computer related, Hornby just seem to have no idea at all! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @hoshI think you are missing the point. BD has no feedback other than something is in the block. Relying on speeds and timing set by the software are just not accurate enough to reliably position a loco at a specific point. LD provides that feedback. Also, it should be easy to retro fit LD (within reason) but BD is much more invasive. Well the invasive comment seems to go to the heart of the matter. Who is going to be interested in LD and not be prepared to have a layout "properly" set up? The idea of providing LD (or any detection system whatsoever) for someone that doesn't even have their layout wired properly is hilarious! And this is what I believe Hornby have recently woken up to. All this other talk about Patents is just as laughable - pure cover story. They haven't got a clue! Looks like we'll simply need to wait for the dinosaurs presently calling the shots to die off and wait for those born in the calculator age to start coming up through the company. Then they can get some advise from their children (born in the computer age) about what to do.Hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @hosh BD has no feedback other than something is in the block. Relying on speeds and timing set by the software are just not accurate enough to reliably position a loco at a specific point. LD provides that feedback. Care to elaborate? If I want to stop a train right at the end of a platform I can have a block begin there and simply cut the power. At another block that begins around about at the start of the platform I can start to slow the train down so that it is almost stopped by the time it gets to the "stopping" block. How can LD do that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 After switching to another supplier of loco detection and control, it has opened by eyes as to what is required in LD.If the system is smart enough you dont need rfid readers or be able to see what train it is, it just needs to see that it is there.ie if you tell the system Shunter is in a block a and block b which is the next block is now active then you can get the software to set a flag that block B now has the train value (shunter) which was in block a, and as the train continues the system keeps track of where it is and what train it is by changing the flag for each block. You can do more smarts to tell which dircetion it is going by the last block and the next block it travels in. (this assumes you have at least two empty blocks between trains!)This requires you put in the train initially or you can have one RFID reader to set the train automatically.Look around and you will find many systems that offer detection in many forms you just need one that has compatibility with the detcetion system and the control software and lastly the DCC control/DC control. Bottom line if you want to control your train and have a basic layout its not for you , If you have a complex network and what to automate it so you can sit back and watch then detection is something to look at. Someone else gets it - wonders 'ill never cease! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 And tosh, sorry hosh, do we understand how easily software can do such tasks, of course we do. The software for full LD capability is already contained within RM and quite powerful. Then as for handling detection in 16 blocks, the LD specification as published is to handle up to 96 sensors placed wherever you like on your layout. And I accept that all of that potential capability is academic until actual hardware is available for sale. There is a product I know of, providing 16 detection points on your layout for under $10US per point. You can have a million of them depending on software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 And tosh, sorry hosh, do we understand how easily software can do such tasks, of course we do. The software for full LD capability is already contained within RM and quite powerful. Then as for handling detection in 16 blocks, the LD specification as published is to handle up to 96 sensors placed wherever you like on your layout. And I accept that all of that potential capability is academic until actual hardware is available for sale. There is a product I know of, providing 16 detection points on your layout for under $10US per point. You can have a million of them depending on software. PS - Oh, and btw, it's been around since right on the turn of the century, as should be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Caesar Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Dunno what happened here... wasn't supposed to reply to you Graskie at all but post was 'posted' and I couldn't delete it and it wouldn't allow a blank reply... so I just posted this rubbish... ho hum... must be Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @hoshYes there are a number of systems on the market, which one are you referring to?You are not promoting it just answering a question following lots of talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 ... following lots of talk about it ...Too much on this specific thread in my opinion!I will raise a new thread for you all to discuss the merits of LD or BD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Good point... seems again we have a runaway train of discussion ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 We sometimes seem to let our sensors run away with us ;-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 1st October 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 ,Planned for 2017 and using different technology (that had been previously planned). Apparantly will allow other features - which the Hornby representitive did not elaborate on. The rumour started following a statement by a Hornby representative at the NEC. Others have confirmed this was said, on and off the forum. I therefore contacted Adam but have not heard anything since (bearing in mind it would need to be looked into and that takes time). In an email conversation with HRMS regarding Train-Tech signals, I mentioned this to them also and provided a link to the comments on the forum. HRMS replied to my email and have stated they are looking into the matter, their comments included... We are not sure where the Loco Detection rumours have come from however there are unfounded. We can only be patient and wait a reply from Hornby or HRMS, bearing in mind it is their busiest time of year but, someone is wrong, meanwhile the question remains... Is LD 'Coming Soon' or will it be 2017? Errors can sometime happen, even with best intentions at the time, we do not want to know who or why, all we want to know is will LD be 'coming soon' or will it be 2017! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 @hoshYes there are a number of systems on the market, which one are you referring to?You are not promoting it just answering a question following lots of talk about it. Ok, and that seems to be within the rules but I'll post it in the other thread to keep the "on topic" cops happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 It now seems reasonably clear Loco Detection is coming. That is the good news! Hornby say 2017, HRMS still maintain it is 'coming soon' Which part of this one company is correct? We are still waiting to find out! So between those two 'very wide goal posts' we can be reasonable certain... LD is coming. Meanwhile we are left wondering when in the next 2 YEARS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slornie Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 In the video game industry this is known as Valve Time (Valve is a game developer which now also runs one of the largest digital game stores in the world). Also see Valve on Valve Time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Here is my new date for the launch of Loco Detection 1-31 --- January-December --- 2016-2017 I think that is very realistic based on comments from Hornby and HRMS recently When we get a reply from themnI will provide another date ;o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37lover Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Sorry but I will not be submitting another date, lost interest. I'l spend the money I put aside on other things, and probably not train related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I think your decision is understandable 37lover, very understandable. After all, how long can they dangle a carrot!!! I am sure some will do as you are doing, I think some will look for other options (and are doing) but in general I am feeling the heat is fast reducing in the fire. It has become a discussion topic and sadly one that not only goes round and round in circles, it is one that never seems to get any where or go any where. From my point of view I find it hard to accept, after all this time, Hornby says 2017, HRMS say coming soon and 2017 is incorrect, yet no one can come forward and clarify which or what is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloop Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I have a feeling that CTI just maybe the problem with Hornby Loco Detection, it seems to me that they already have a system working with RFID identifying any tag that passes the reader. Pending CTI patents would make it hard for Hornby to use a similar system, even if it did use barcode readers in place of RFID tags. It might be better if Hornby worked with CTI to get Elite and eLink working with their system, the downside being that it might mark the end of RailMaster. Given that it works with the NCE Power Cab I use with my shunting puzzle I will give it a try, if it works I can use the power cab to run the main layout in conjunction with CTI. John B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete172 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 At first I was extremely interested in LD, and I was prepared to dig deep and equip my whole layout with it. I am fast losing interest now and think if Hornby say 2017 then it could just as easily be 2018 ...I recon it would have been best if Hornby had kept the development of LD a secret until it was actually ready for release....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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