Loco Detection availability - Let's start a sweep

[PJ_model_trains]

The literature has already said that speed and direction will be known on a detection, and I'm assuming this literature has originated from what Hornby has told them.  My source is the Hornby RM article in the DCC supplement of the May 2014 issue of the Hornby Magazine.

 

Now I agree it is unlikely that reading a tag will include them knowing speed and direction by which way the tag was read and how fast it was seen to go over the sensor, although that isn't impossible.  What I think will happen is that, having detected a tag number, and knowing from the loco setup which loco the tag is attached to, it csn then read the loco throttle to get the information.

 

But which of these happens is irrelevant.  The important thing is that we are told that speed and direction will be known when a detection is made.

 

Hi

 

I have just replied to Ray's comments regarding speed, and as you say also the speed will no doubt be picked up from the throttle as the detector knows which speed.

 

I do wonder though how important this is.  I will have planned my routes as a train driver, I will have reduced speed before I got to the next sensor/signal, so I am not doing 60mph and being asked to drop to 20.  I could therefore be reducing speed, due to a yellow signal, for those with signals. My speed may say 22mph but it may be irrelevant, as I pass the sensor it could request speed to be say, 20mph, of if aspect has changed to green raise to X-mph, or on red aspect stop.  So the fact it says I am doing 22mph is not important, what is important is I have slowed down based on the last signal and can adjust to a request it this next sensor/signal.

 

Just my thoughts, as I would drive to set conditions, defined by signals or speed limit areas requested by programs or sensors which in turn may request me to slow down based on 'Proceed with caution' or 'Proceed with extra caution' signals on my travels.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

PJ, our posts are crossing over right left and centre at the moment.  I've told this in the fourth post down on page 34.  It's in your loco setup windows third from the bottom or see page 34 of the manual.

 

I suppose it is understandable Fishy

 

You submitted a large reply inviting people to reply to each section and mentioned me a few times, so replies were needed as well as requested.

 

I therefore cannot be to blame if you were a little impatient, it was clear the replies were from your long message and I did say I would reply to each in turn.

[Tee1707818014]

I just hope LD can connect to a usb hub as my laptop already has elite 1 & 2 plugged in to main ports the third has the voice receiver for headphone & the forth usb has a 4 usb hub which has a mem stick for backups a wireless mouse receiver leaving 2 spare!

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, apologies, wasn't intending to be impatient or cross, it was just that as multiple posts were turning up I found I had to keep going back a page to find everything being said, so you may have missed something if you weren't doing that too.  And yes, I was definitely inviting questions.

 

All sorted now?

[Fishmanoz]

Tibrahim, on hubs, there are hubs and hubs.  HRMS have admitted previously that good spec powered hubs are actually ok, and a number of users have admitted connecting via them, so I think it will be ok.

[Fishmanoz]

Can I suggest we ask Adam to put the content from my LD in a fishy nutshell post into a sticky thread titled "Loco Detection: What Is It and How Does It Work?"

What a great idea!

(See my post of page 34 of this 'Sweep thread', 3rd one down)

 

I'd been thinking about it anyway and your post convinced me.

 

Adam, how about it?  With this one I'd assume that someone would have to clear that my speculation, even if informed speculation based on what we know and what has been published, is actually a reasonable explanation of what LD is going to be.

[Fishmanoz]

Importance of speed and direction:  I'm not sure I know the answer to this PJ, and it will spend on how you choose to operate your layout too.  Someone operating trains both ways on the same line may well only want things to happen if a train is travelling towards danger or just some point on the layout, not away from it.

 

And reading speed from a throttle may not be precise if in fact the loco is accelerating or decelerating at the time.  You could be really clever and adjust for that though by knowing how long the speed has been changing, if you could track that.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, apologies, wasn't intending to be impatient or cross, it was just that as multiple posts were turning up I found I had to keep going back a page to find everything being said, so you may have missed something if you weren't doing that too.  And yes, I was definitely inviting questions.

 

No problem

 

There were quite a few issues I think as discussions for a period continued to separate. Badly worded, some taken incorrectly, etc, etc.

 

We agreed with what we expect LD to do, prior to this latest discussion. I was misunderstood also that LD and RM working together, they will do, they have to.  The other misunderstanding was our train of thought started on the same track but then branched, it was as though we were talking on one track LD but the discussion was on another track, the RM track discussing LD working in RM.

 

Ray picked up on what I was trying to say, which basically was that we can add the LD icon on our layout, we can partly set it up, we can see the commands in the left column of the action box but, not the ones in the right  column, they will not show in LD until it is launched and we have installed it.

 

Easy to understand how this happened when talking of two systems and one system we don't have yet. 

 

Anyway, moving on, interesting item you picked up on regarding the Detection ID in the train setup. There is no option to add tag numbers as you first thought, unless I have missed it, but it does appear that this is were a tag would be linked to a loco. The options in the Detection ID are ONLY the addresses previously set for the locos we have!  As it happens I have already set this ID to the same as the train ID.

 

I think I mentioned this previously, if the tag for the train is the same number as the Detection ID number, which is same as the train address number, we must receive at least one sheet of tags which will include any address we set for any train. If a tag gets damaged we change it (if we get two sheets of tags for trains) or we could use another tag and re-address the train ID. But what a nightmare that could be going back through every program we have previously set up with that particular train ID.

 

If the train is linked from LD to RM in this way that would work but, we/me, would maybe say what about the tender of last carriage/wagon or guards van.  I think, I may be wrong, that the train tag is the main one as it communicates with RM for throttle speed etc, etc. The other items mentioned above are not needed in this way, they are additional items to to different things, eg give instructions to signals and maybe points.

 

So, I am thinking, may be wrong, a tag on a train has a number (bar code number) so that LD information processed by RM knows which train and relevant train data, for setting speed or other train related instructions,  but other tags will be more general to do other general tasks, signals, points, sound (not necesarily the trains), etc

 

At the end of the day there will just be two items of data send back when a train goes over the sensor, one the sensor ID and the other the tag ID. RM will process this data, either a train tag for train instructions or  a general tag code for other none train instructions.  Fishy listed a few of these the other day.

 

The tender, last wagon or guards van tag, will mainly be to let the system know the last item has passed the initial signal so that signals back down the line can be changed in their correct aspects. These could be changed in a program once the relavant tag details have been received and the programmed data processed. 

 

Comments invited.  ;o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Importance of speed and direction:  I'm not sure I know the answer to this PJ, and it will spend on how you choose to operate your layout too.  Someone operating trains both ways on the same line may well only want things to happen if a train is travelling towards danger or just some point on the layout, not away from it.

 

And reading speed from a throttle may not be precise if in fact the loco is accelerating or decelerating at the time.  You could be really clever and adjust for that though by knowing how long the speed has been changing, if you could track that.

 

Hi Fishy

 

Why have I said my LD will cost £400?  It is because I have two way traffic.

 

My layout is set up already with signals for two way traffic, on the left going clockwise and on the left going anti-clockwise.

 

This means to do it right it will need one sensor, just before each signal, each way!

 

Why one in each direction you may say?  Because the sensor is not next to the signal it is just before it. Stopping distance tollerence.  I am sure some people will try make one do by putting a signal opposite another and the sensor in line, that will be down to how much a person wants to pay or has to play with. 

 

So, as I see it, we set a train to go forward or backwards. The sensor doesn't know what this means it just picks up a tag number when a train etc passes over it. But it know which train by the tag and the train ID and the train is going forward so the answer is already there.  

 

Now the train going forward, that passed over the sensor, has a linked signed (on its left) instructions may be sent based on the signal aspect... on RED stop, on Yellow 20mph, on Double Yellow 30mph on Green 60mph.

 

RM knows which sensor, it knows which tag passed over, this tag is detected in RM by the tag number which is the train number, so it knows everything about his train. Moving forward etc, etc.

 

So direction is not a problem Fishy, neither is speed, RM knows.

 

Unless you or someone else knows something I have not considered?

 

PJ

[RDS]

 

Unless you or someone else knows something I have not considered?

 

I know something you have not considered - The title of this thread!

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Unless you or someone else knows something I have not considered?

 

I know something you have not considered - The title of this thread!

 

It may surprise you when I say, I have.

 

I think we had a run away train, fortunately  all the latest discussions are all in one place.

 

It would have probably been better if the topic had been in its own thread, but who would have thought so much would be included? Hine sight is a wonderful thing. 

 

Sorry from me.  ;o(

[96RAF]

@PJ

"...better if the topic had been in its own thread,..."

I suggested that on Page 35.

[Fishmanoz]

Yes, nice if it were separate, but it isn't. And Adam has yet to come back to help us out with that.

 

PJ, a couple of things from both of your last long posts.  Can I start by suggesting to eliminate any confusion we talk about locos, not trains, because it is locos that have detection IDs, not trains.

 

On what the LD system can tell RM:  Yes it must be able to communicate a tag number detected at a sensor number, that may be all.  Then maybe not, maybe it also reports speed and direction of the tag, we are yet to know that, but it is technically feasible to at least some extent.  There is no reason it can't know which end of the tag first hits the sensor, if ends are coded on the tag, and so know which direction it is going (it would have to know which way around the tag is mounted too, such as by our being told to always mount end 1 towards the forward end of the loco).  And as the tag will take a finite time to pass over the sensor, no reason not to measure that time and make a speed calculation. It's possible but we are yet to know, just don't discount it for now.

 

On linking sensors with signals or anything else on the layout for that matter:  in the first instance, there is no provision we can see at the moment for RM (or LD) to know about any such linkage.  We may think of them as linked, given our intentions on how we operate ouR layouts, but RM/LD doesn't know.  All that RM can know is what we program into a sensor configuration and that can include doing things dependent on a signal setting, but that still doesn't imply any linkage between them.

 

Put another way, we must remember to separate in our heads what we know about layout configuration and what RM/LD knows, which doesn't include anything of this nature.  It certainly knows that points and signals and sensors exist, and that info is programmed into them to do things when we tell them to change state, or a detection occurs, but that's all.  I realise you may be quite clear on this too, but the language you use keeps suggesting to me otherwise.

[RDS]

... my date has come and gone 21st March (boo!!). ...

It's time you had another guess then Phil

(PJ guessed 1st April, so not looking too good for that one either)

[PJ_model_trains]

... my date has come and gone 21st March (boo!!). ...

It's time you had another guess then Phil

(PJ guessed 1st April, so not looking too good for that one either)

 

Hi Dave

April fool comes to mind.

We wish, we hope, we dream, dream on I think!

How can we guess a date? Hornby can't guess the date for delivery of some items, class 47, February, then the end of March, now end of May. Ermmmm maybe if LD comes at the end of May anyone of us could have been right from a date previously suggested. LOL.

Some things are best launched at the busiest time of year to obtain maximum sales, I thing LD is the reverse, possibly an initial dash for it then gradual sales from then on (waiting for John maybe LOL). Summer would be a good time for them to launch LD, should there be any issues there would not be a flood of complaints just messages from many of us who have got used to waiting. ; o)

In a way I look forward to LD, in another I don't, 42 sensors on my last count! Some may have even more.

[37lover]

Part of my reason for buying RM was the idea of LD; I'm very happy with RM in the meantime and may have trouble finding funds, if and when, LD is eventually released. I'm still building my layout and although it is very close to reaching a useable state I don't want to spend a lot of time cleaning track if I then don't use it regularly. Once I do start using it I'll be looking at writing some programmes. My forecast is 1st December 2015, probably a bit too close to Christmas but also 25 years of marriage!

[PJ_model_trains]

For reference: The last update list is on page 28.

I have 31 May 2015 so would also like to add a second date...

11 September 2015  (I was going to say the 4th but will stick with the 11th) ;o)

My considerations for release of Loco Detection this year are based on Hornby revealing some some of the commands for LD in RM and encouraging discussions on the forum monthsss and monthsss ago. 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

In percentage terms the chance of LD being launched this year are better than for next year.

This year there are only 365 days (Only1 LOL) next year is a leap year!  ;o)

[37lover]

In percentage terms the chance of LD being launched this year are better than for next year.

This year there are only 365 days (Only1 LOL) next year is a leap year!  ;o)

Interesting PJ, but wrong. An extra day means next year is longer and therefore more chance [albeit a misery 1 in 365/6] of the release falling within the year given a fixed time [which we unfortunately don't know] for patent/development of LD. Nice try, trying to encourage others to go for this year!

Admitedly you would have a better chance of predicting the date in the shorter year but that's a different statistic  

[PJ_model_trains]

Thanks 37

Yes it was a nice try, although not intentional, I still believe it will be this year but... we will have to wait and see.

I am not sure whether I will be thrown into excitment or fear when it is launched.

Excitment no doubt but also the 'O no my layout needs lifting again syndrome'

 

[37lover]

Thanks 37

Yes it was a nice try, although not intentional, I still believe it will be this year but... we will have to wait and see.

I am not sure whether I will be thrown into excitment or fear when it is launched.

Excitment no doubt but also the 'O no my layout needs lifting again syndrome'

 

The waiting bit is difficult, doesn't get any easier or less painful the longer it goes on does it? I think I'll be waiting even a bit longer so others can get to grip with LD and hopefully answer all my questions! And it gives me more time to save the pennies, unless I spend them on tangible things that are available now.

 

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi 37

When you have considered all those options ;o)

And made a decision you are happy with ;-]

I am sure you will be very pleased.

And as your layout and running your trains comes to a point of real enjoyment, the work above and below the boards, and in the head, start all over again. LOL

[Augustus Caesar]

@Fishy

Although all this guessing and wondering and confusion and bewilderment and supposition (great word eh?) and lack of insight into the whereabouts and whenabouts LD will be unleashed on our great population with all the fanfair of letting go a party popper... is leaving us all with this huge headache, we need some form of relaxation and comfort.

So I've got some instructions for you... clear out your rooms and place the bunk beds we have sent over (50 of them) into those rooms and ensure they are spider, snake and croc free. Have loads of tea and coffee (and other special beverages) on the go at all times.

Have the authrorities know we will be coming over en-masse and will be landing upon the top of Uluru and will make our descent down the sides rapidly so need some cushions for a soft landing!

Graskie has kindly offered to use one of his gold bars to pay for the flight (private charter no less - weyhey) although you better have some spare lolly sent over because we all know he won't part with it and it was to cover the cost of the pilot.

Loads of grog will be downed in our attempts to collectively come up with a plan to get Hornby to get the sale of LD ready for the 19th October 2015... which just so happens to be my fruitful guess at a release date! :-)

We've got our kippy bags ready so no need to go to the expense of covering that. If your house isn't big enough we'll sleep near the Rock and wait for a magical sunset which will inspire further discussion of a release date... oh.. we'll need some tents though... and because you may claim your house is too small for all of us we will leave the cost of that to you... yay!

We'll be over next week... :-) Oh, and we'll be there until the grog runs out from the unlimited supply the local brewers will offer us friends of the Fishy... :-)

[Augustus Caesar]

...and for my second guess guys...

a really creditable guess too which will be really close to the mark...

April 1st 2017 at 11.59am UK time.

The press are all over this one... :-)

[Fishmanoz]

Hi AC, just give me an arrival date with a bit of notice please.  Takes a while to walk from my place in Sydney to the Rock to meet you, or to walk quickly the other way depending.