Dapol track cleaning wagon Hornby DCC Chip

[PJ_model_trains]

I would wait to see if that is the case before deciding you have made a mistake. If it is just melted solder can you not just re-solder it? I confess to not having looked inside yet so that might be a daft thing to say - see what is wrong and see if you can recover it. R-

 

I will be back tomorrow Roger.

 

Got boggie wheels off and split the cab and removed  the DCC chip.

 

I need to carefully take it to bits as there is not a lot of play on some wires and I need to put it back together gain afaterwards  ;o)

 

Chat tomorrow

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Roger

 

I have opened up the Dapol track cleaning wagon.

 

 - Removed the mesh cover looked through the fan all is clear

 - the fan is also movable by hand

 - Removed the vacuum cleaner fan

 - Removed the DCC chip

 - Loosened the surround to the motor to expose the soldered wires to the motor.

 - The wires to the motor have not melted?

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93693-dapol-track-cleaning-wagon-fault/

 

I will put it back together and test with shunt/cruise and slide power adjuster (tomorrow)

 

PJ

[96RAF]

Hello Roger

 

I have opened up the Dapol track cleaning wagon.

 

 - Removed the mesh cover looked through the fan all is clear

 - the fan is also movable by hand

 - Removed the vacuum cleaner fan

 - Removed the DCC chip

 - Loosened the surround to the motor to expose the soldered wires to the motor.

 - The wires to the motor have not melted?

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93693-dapol-track-cleaning-wagon-fault/

 

I will put it back together and test with shunt/cruise and slide power adjuster (tomorrow)

 

PJ

Current collecting bogie springs can be a pest PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I have got it back together again and tested.

 

It is currently set as a shunter 10mph and 20mph

 

I used the slider, speed came in at 5mph but only just (obviousy to low just testing)

 

I could hear a small difference in speed up to 20mph but very small and hard to make out the difference.

 

I changed the loco settings and brought in a Bo-Bo diesel so I could test higher speeds for the motor.

 

Again speed cuts in at 5mph and I gradually took it up to 60mph. There is a definate difference in the speed on the motor, so that is good news but, the running of the motor is not smooth. Instead of what we would expect from a smooth running elecric motor the noise I get is more of a crackle. The crackle increases with speed as  the motor increases in speed. 

 

I will have another look tomorrow.

 

My thoughts at this time are...

- good it is not dead or near to it

- the motor speeds up so that has to be good also

- is the crackle sound as the motor runs due to what you sat RAF

- or is the solder joint partly melted?

 

Comments welcome I will test again tomorrow

 

PJ

[RB51]

I could hear a small difference in speed up to 20mph but very small and hard to make out the difference.

 To be honest PJ mine does not make much noice at all - unless on a very high speed.

I changed the loco settings and brought in a Bo-Bo diesel so I could test higher speeds for the motor.

I don't understand this comment. The Bo-Bo will pull the cleaner along but not change it's motor speed.

There is a definate difference in the speed on the motor, so that is good news but, the running of the motor is not smooth.

That doesn't sound good.

Instead of what we would expect from a smooth running elecric motor the noise I get is more of a crackle. The crackle increases with speed as  the motor increases in speed. 

You may well have a problem here - is the spindle OK and does the fan blade rotate freely if you spin it by hand?

 

 

[Zues]

Two possibilities here i think either there is some track ballast stuck in the motor causing the crackling efect or the motor has fried by over volting, i think the solder fuse has failed to blow when presented with more than 9 volts,

as i said before you need to beg, borrow, or steal a dc power supply of no more than 6v to test the motor, or even make up a battery bank of roughly 6v.

A crackling dc motor sugests to me thats its fried, and as its secondhand there's no way of knowing what the previous owner done to it.

[PJ_model_trains]

I changed the loco settings and brought in a Bo-Bo diesel so I could test higher speeds for the motor.

I don't understand this comment. The Bo-Bo will pull the cleaner along but not change it's motor speed.

>>> The Dapol wagon was set as a shunter in the loco set up, I changed it to a Bo-Bo to give extreme differce in sound. e.g. shunter max 20mph, Bo-Bo 70mph (Fast running motor)

______________________________________________________

That doesn't sound good.

Instead of what we would expect from a smooth running elecric motor the noise I get is more of a crackle. The crackle increases with speed as  the motor increases in speed. 

You may well have a problem here - is the spindle OK and does the fan blade rotate freely if you spin it by hand?

>>> I can turn the motor manually with no noise from it.

 ______________________________________________________

Replies included above see >>>

[PJ_model_trains]

Two possibilities here i think either there is some track ballast stuck in the motor causing the crackling efect or the motor has fried by over volting, i think the solder fuse has failed to blow when presented with more than 9 volts

>>> I have removed fan back to small spindle and checked motor etc all is clear

as i said before you need to beg, borrow, or steal a dc power supply of no more than 6v to test the motor, or even make up a battery bank of roughly 6v.

>>> battery bank would be only option I will have to see what I can find. What about a 9volt battery if I can find one?

A crackling dc motor sugests to me thats its fried, and as its secondhand there's no way of knowing what the previous owner done to it.

>>> the  frustrating part is it worked until it derailed at a point and shorted, approx. 10 feet! The solder to the red wire looks fine, the solder to the black does have a shine to it. I wonder if it started to melt the solder and didn't quite finish the job?

Hi Zues, comments above

PJ

[RB51]

I'm afraid PJ I'm now at a loss to assist any further. You seem to have checked everything I would look at (and I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination) but I dont understand why the motor spins with only a low voltage being applied. I dont think it can be the soldering otherwise you would have no revolutions on the motor at any voltage. As Zues suggests try getting a battery onto the wires and see. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'm sure you will keep us posted as to the outcome. R-

[Zues]

My guess is that the meltable fuse didn't do its job, A 9v battery will do just fine make sure you covert back to DC first though.

[PJ_model_trains]

I'm afraid PJ I'm now at a loss to assist any further. You seem to have checked everything I would look at (and I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination) but I dont understand why the motor spins with only a low voltage being applied. I dont think it can be the soldering otherwise you would have no revolutions on the motor at any voltage. As Zues suggests try getting a battery onto the wires and see. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'm sure you will keep us posted as to the outcome. R-

 

Hello Roger

 

Thank you for your help and patience. Some things can easily be sorted some things take longer or cannot be sorted. That's life.

 

This problem is a mystery but, time allowing, I will continue to see if I can find out what it is. For the motor to run and increase speed is encouraging, the crackle noise is weird. There are a lot of contacts that I will need to check, boggie wheels carry current to some metal strips. There ae some springs from the boggie to a metal plate in the base of the wagon. I will have another look at the soldering. Make sure everything is seated properly although having stripped it a couple of time snow I would think that is unlikely.

 

But Christmas is coming and time may be limited till the new year, we will have to see. The hard part is the motor is encased when put together so it can only be seen when stripped down.Obviously for safety with claning solvent and muck/duct from vacuuming.

 

I will add an update when I have more to share. If I get it working I will be very reluctant to open up again s here are so many bits from the tarack to the motor.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Roger

 

I have opened up the Dapol track cleaning wagon.

 

 - Removed the mesh cover looked through the fan all is clear

 - the fan is also movable by hand

 - Removed the vacuum cleaner fan

 - Removed the DCC chip

 - Loosened the surround to the motor to expose the soldered wires to the motor.

 - The wires to the motor have not melted?

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93693-dapol-track-cleaning-wagon-fault/

 

I will put it back together and test with shunt/cruise and slide power adjuster (tomorrow)

 

PJ

Current collecting bogie springs can be a pest PJ

Thanks RAF

I notided them amongst many otther bits and think this is worth back tracking on.

In my next strip down of the wagon I will be looking at all these little areas 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Hello Roger

 

I have opened up the Dapol track cleaning wagon.

 

 - Removed the mesh cover looked through the fan all is clear

 - the fan is also movable by hand

 - Removed the vacuum cleaner fan

 - Removed the DCC chip

 - Loosened the surround to the motor to expose the soldered wires to the motor.

 - The wires to the motor have not melted?

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93693-dapol-track-cleaning-wagon-fault/

 

I will put it back together and test with shunt/cruise and slide power adjuster (tomorrow)

 

PJ

Current collecting bogie springs can be a pest PJ

 

[PJ_model_trains]

My guess is that the meltable fuse didn't do its job, A 9v battery will do just fine make sure you covert back to DC first though.

Hi Zues

I will get a 9v battery and check it.

Probably after next strip down of the wagon as I will need to remove DCC chip and add blanking chip

Many thanks

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I have just picked up Ray's comments in another thread regarding the Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoder and followed further detals on the DCC Concepts site.

 

Although here we are talking Dapol Track Cleaning Wagon read the following...

 

DCC Layout Wire and Wiring Accessories Bus Suppressors/ Terminators 

When any short circuit happens on your DCC powered model railway, there is a rapid collapse of track voltage followed by a voltage spike that is approximately 3 times the original rail voltage... On a larger scale layout or one with some higher voltage European DCC systems, this can be as high as 65 volts! This is enough to cause incremental damage to decoders and is one of the primary reasons for spontaneous decoder failure. The BT2 stops this problem and also acts to smooth the DCC waveform in general use, ensuring better data communication and reliable running.

 

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/CatalogueRetrieve.aspx?ProductID=9125150&A=SearchResult&SearchID=41646725&ObjectID=9125150&ObjectType=27

 

I have a DCC Bus, with twisted wires, using the Radial method. But do not have termnal bus suppressors.

The problem with the Dapol Wagon is it is 9volts, it is designed to melt the solder points on the motor if theere is an issue. A guy told me this can be caused by a derailment or short which did happen!

 

I think I need to get Bus Suppressors fitted. 

 

My problem may not be melting of the solder joint to the motor but, I thought it worth adding this information in this thread.

 

PJ

[Zues]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, short circuit, voltage spike, makes perfect sense now, i bet that when you put a battery on the motor it wil be fine its the decoder that the problem 

[RB51]

Which in some small measure will be a relief - at least the unit itself is not US. R-

[PJ_model_trains]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, short circuit, voltage spike, makes perfect sense now, i bet that when you put a battery on the motor it wil be fine its the decoder that the problem 

 

Hi Zues, it's good to talk as they say  ;o)

I have a spare Hornby 8 pin DCC decoder R8249

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Which in some small measure will be a relief - at least the unit itself is not US. R-

 

I agree Roger

I read that article regarding the terminators and suddenly it made sense it could be a spike, but with the Dapol wagon history, all I was thinking about was a melt down of the solder to the motor.

Now a 9 volt battery with a chip blanking plate might be best option first and not put in another chip in and test live until I can add two DCC Bus Suppressor/Terminator, one to each end of the DCC bus wires.

If I don't get a 9 volt battery this weekend it will have to wait until the new year

Thanks guys, I will keep you informed.

PJ

[RB51]

Good plan. Those little bus terminator gizmos are easy and cheap to make yourself if your ok with a soldering iron. Let us know if you need help. R-

[Yelrow]

Isaid all this about testing 2 pages ago, and was totally ignored. john

[PJ_model_trains]

Good plan. Those little bus terminator gizmos are easy and cheap to make yourself if your ok with a soldering iron. Let us know if you need help. R-

Bus Terminator Gizmos, I like that  ;-)

What do I need?   A trip to Maplins?

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

Good idea. Brian Lambert for the resistor and capacitor values, Maplins to buy. If you have a star bus, one at each end of the star. If a ring, one anywhere you like across it. 

[Graskie]

Isaid all this about testing 2 pages ago, and was totally ignored. john

 

What on earth do you expect, John? We always try to ignore the French and any of their collaborators. 

[RB51]

What do I need?   A trip to Maplins?

PJ

As Fishy has said a visit to Brian Lamberts web site and then a trip to Maplins or Bitsbox. R-