melting points

[Yelrow]

hi, just turned on elink and RM, and noticed, one point was melting, under DCC clips. On further exam, 3 more are the same. Points fire ok, and point decoders are not warm. This point was really hot. Help. john

[2e0dtoeric]

That's three different places you've put this! See the comments on this in the other thread you started.

[Yelrow]

I did not , only put on once, nothing came up, emailed to  tell them, and lo and behold,  many , many . john

[2e0dtoeric]

:-)

[PJ_model_trains]

John

This topic is listed fo many times, it gets fragmented and confusing.

I know you are frustrated. 

PJ

[Yelrow]

it was not i, only listed once. its those xmas elves. john

[PJ_model_trains]

it was not i, only listed once. its those xmas elves. john

Have you been on the wino John, 

Or been to a Panto.

'It's those xmas elves'!

Oh no it isn't!

[Yelrow]

PJ, am almost TT, and pantos dont exist in france. However, xmas elves...............john

[96RAF]

The SNCF has pantos on their trains.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, am almost TT, and pantos dont exist in france. However, xmas elves...............john

 

Hello John

 

I am just trying to lighten the air a little, I know you are very frustrated but we want to help.

 

Please see my message in the general forum of the same title.

 

PJ 

[Fishmanoz]

Mine too.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, am almost TT, and pantos dont exist in france. However, xmas elves...............john

 

 

Hello John

 

Almost TT, but Macon is only 40 miles away and you get your Burgandy Red wine from there!

 

You really do look after the elves, or was it yours-elves  ; o)

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I did not , only put on once, nothing came up, emailed to  tell them, and lo and behold,  many , many . john

 

Can you do this trick with your Burgandy Red wine... many, many, many?

 

PLEASE  ; o)

 

PJ

[Yelrow]

a few weeks ago, i posted about my melting points, and  having removed all point motors as suspects, beg to report, their innocence. It happened again today, with result that having removed track leading to DCC turntable, they cooled and returned to normal. Turntable, currently refuses to turn, and perhaps all this heat has damaged decoder. Am looking into further, but added all this as a precautionary tale. Circuit worked for 3 weeks , without any melting plastic, curious. john

[2e0dtoeric]

If you have removed the track to the turntable, and now it won't turn - where was the turntable motor getting it's power from?

If it was from the track, via the decoder, whereabouts was it connected TO the track - before, or after the point leading to it? (after being the piee of track between the point and the t/table!)

[Yelrow]

This might be easier to explain with photo, but its 3 degrees up there. TT, is in  the middle of the layout, all 18 tracks leading to it are powered,   so locos can move to engine sheds etc. The 18th track, is/was connected via a point back to track main layout, and it worked fine up until  melting noticed. I was able to run trains on the 5 tracks, plus shunt in the middle. TT controlled from schematic no 0022, on screen, by clicking. TT motor, driven by decoder. So to answer your final query, AFTER ,  point, one straight between   point, and TT.. Power, now becomes a prob. I was thinking about insulated joiners, between point and TT, which would solve problem of melting points, but not supply to TT. i also wondered if i had affected decoder, but have forgotten how i  set it up in RM. Cannot remember if i had to use prog Track. Thats the trouble with getting old, i need to remember to write things down, problem being, then cannot read my writing. Does that clear up what you asked. Could take photo tomorrow, as forcast set to improve. Thank you for your input. john

[96RAF]

John

This sounds to me like a short circuit that comes into play every now and then when a certain set of circumstances line up. Like a psuedo reverse loop downstream of the problem point.

I would suggest if you have droppers from your tracks that one is crossed somewhere in that dodgy length betwixt TT and the melting point. Maybe one of those 18 TT tracks est le coupable. When the short is configured to the rest of the track upstream the point takes a beating.

[Yelrow]

Raf 96, as the french say, EXACT, i have droppers from all 18 tracks into switch blocks, and all were tested, and metered, and colour co ordinated, BUT   i am  of the same opinion as you. However, there is only one set of droppers between TT, and melting point. Having said that, 4 points are affected, but they are in 2x2, so i suppose, they would be. What is a tad irritating was the way it all worked fine, for some time. john

[96RAF]

 What is a tad irritating was the way it all worked fine, for some time. john

And in that time you only ever managed to get the bogey configuration lined up on the odd occassion - just before the fire.

As the help desk always asks - '...what exactly did you do before it...' - and of course its impossible to remember.

I suggest drawing up a paper matrix of possible route settings based on the track geometry in that dodgy area and then run through them in turn using the thumb test to check for hot spots as you go, but with 18 tracks on the TT versus the 2x2 points combination it could take some time.

I advise packing a lunch basket and a bottle of red in case it takes longer than estimated.

Rob

[Fishmanoz]

Remembering a few things from the previous discussion:

 

This cannot be a real wires/track crossed short circuit or the eLink will trip out. You can test if the trip is faulty using the coin test.  Remove all locos and put a coin across the track, or a screwdriver. Does the eLink trip out?  We went around in circles on overload protection last time with john asking why there wasn't any and my saying that the fault condition wasn't exceeding a current flow high enough to trip the eLink. The coin test will prove if there is overload protection working, or if the eLink is faulty in this regard.  And do the test near where you've had melting, I'll assume that is away from your track feed point?  Let us know if this is true (melting isn't near your track feed).

 

There must be a high current flow though, something under the maximum 4 Amps available before the eLink trips, but approaching that level.  So either you are running lots of locos at once, or something is faulty.  Remember you can run say 4 locos per Amp so we are talking 10 locos running at once and more before they get near overload current.  Accessory decoders draw very little, even when recharging their CDUs after throwing a point.  If a loco is running, we can assume it can't be faulty.  So what can it be?  An accessory decoder with a fault that causes high current without actually burning it out is also unlikely.  At the track end, the circuitry is low power to detect DCC signals and charge the CDU.  Is the extreme weather leading to condensation or the like and causing a path for current flow?

 

If the track is melting, at points or anywhere, there must be a relatively high resistance at that point. Last time we suggested the DCC point clips might be corroded and not making good contact, or maybe just poorly fitted.  Or it might be a loose fishplate even.  Remember John doesn't run a bus, although he is now talking about feeds to his TT outlets. 

 

This is is most unlikely to be point motors. They are not connected directly to track physically so couldn't pass heat in them to track to melt it.  And if they were receiving more than the standard pulse from their decoders, they would now be burnt out themselves and cold.  So you can reinstall any you have removed without there being a risk.  I don't think you mentioned about removing them last time or I would have said the same thing then.

 

So I don't know what is causing it but I've given you some possibilities to think about.

 

On your TT, we remember it's not Hornby, and I remember you told us about setting it up and operating it.  So if you have forgotten, look up your previous posts on it by forum search.  

[96RAF]

I wasn't suggesting the point motors might be at fault, just the track routing combination they can set.

 

I still think a 'wiring' fault somewhere is the root of the problem and when John hits the correct combination of points and TT track in the right atmospheric conditions he will get the fault again.

 

Once the fault is repeatable then it will be possible to carry out further investigation.

 

It is likely that the hard wiring is OK, given the meter checks and colour coding John made and that it works most of the time.

 

Say some foreign object (track pin, strand of wire, swarf, etc has lodged in a bad place, or it may be as simple as a slightly loose terminal screw and this only promotes high current  or high resistance effect at certain times and probably only under certain temperature or humidity conditions as Fishy points out.

[Yelrow]

hi, all point motors are no longer connected, nor any selonoids, cos i blamed them the first time, wrongly, as it turned out. Furthermore, there is no short, as trains were running(although slowly) which may be a clue, when i burnt my fingers. I am going to fully vacuum, and check for english body, as foreign body, would be inappropriate, given where i live. I tried to find my previous TT posts in search, but came up empty handed. If i fitted insulated joiners where TT, joins points, presume that would stop the problem, pro tem, and then, could wire a new supply to TT. john

[96RAF]

Just out of interest John - you may already have said, but its lost in the passage of time (i.e. further than last week for me) - are your point motors/solenoids up-top or under the boards. Likewise your connection blocks.

 

The reason for asking is if topside I find makes life a whole lot easier at my age, especially when fault-finding - no creeping about at an awkward height, no banging one's head and no peering unfocussed through the wrong bit of my vari-focals. Maybe I could ask Dennis Taylor if he's finished with his, now he doesn't play competitive snooker anymore.

[RDS]

... and no peering unfocussed through the wrong bit of my vari-focals ...

Just put them on upside down

[96RAF]

... and no peering unfocussed through the wrong bit of my vari-focals ...

Just put them on upside down

 

I had toyed with the idea of taking the arms off an old pair and swapping them over but never got round to it.