Hornby Points Motors , Hornby Points and Switchpilot Decoder

[RDS]

I am in the process of installing Hornby Points Motors (R8014) onto all the points on my layout.  I have opted to mount them directly to the bottom of the points by inserting the 4 metal tabs of the motor through the relevant slots in the point.  The pin of the point motor solenoid fits into the hole in the slider bar of the points.

 

When the motor is not connected to the point, they work perfectly, even 2 motors from one decoder port, which is what I require for 24 out of my 28 points.  However, I am having difficulty getting the motor to fire properly when mounted on the point, as it seems to have too much resistance from the point.  

 

All the motors are new and all the points work easily by hand.  Even when the motor is mounted on the point, the point can be operated easily manually, using the slider bar.

 

This is NOT a switchpilot problem because the motors will not fire properly when connected to the point operated from a separate power supply.

[PJR_slo]

Hi RDS

 

It doesn't look like the Switchpilot has a CDU output; have you tried longer pulses?  The other option is to feed it from a separate PSU (up to 18V) - an old laptop PSU should suffice.

 

I had a similar issue with Peco motors/Tawcraft decoders (with CDU O/P) @ 15V and as soon as I applied 18V all worked well.

 

Peter

[Chrissaf]

Hi RDS we speak again,

At last someone who provides a lot of detail in their question for once. I concur 100% with Peter. As you know there has been an awful lot of threads on here relating to Switch Pilots. And in many of them I have suggested using a separate power supply to fire points. I didn't want to labour the point at the time as I had no actual physical experience of using them. It was all theory, and here is some more.

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Someone else, can't remember who, reported categorically that the Switch Pilot did not have an integral CDU. The nature of a solenoid point motor (regardless of brand) is that they need a LOT of current (about 4 amps) to fire robustly & reliably. It is normally the CDU that provides this sudden pulse of high current even though it is connected to a much lower current power supply. In the absence of a CDU all the current therefore has to come from the power supply (this is a comment I have made before). I found with my Peco point motors they wouldn't fire reliably on anything less than 18volts. Theroretically, Hornby point motors should fire reliably on the lower 15v DCC voltages, but remember that in the majority, the accessory decoders are CDU assisted or the points are fired with manual switches via Hornby 15/16vac AUX outputs. I have found that measuring the average DC controller 16vac AUX output gives a reading nearer 18vac anyway.

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I daresay that others will come back and state I use Switch Pilots with xyz and they work fine. But obviously their experiences are different from your own. Given that the Switch Pilot supports the option of a separate external power supply. Then I personally would invest in a high current 18vac transformer, put it in a case, and use that connected to your Pilots.

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One other thing you could try first. I can't remember the CV setting. It is in the Switch Pilot manual. But there is a setting relating to Peco point motors. I know you are using Hornby ones, but invoking the Peco setting might improve matters. But if I recall, the setting related to increasing solenoid current when using an external separate power supply, so may not be appropriate unless you adopt the external power supply option.

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I know you stated that you tried test firing them on a separate PSU and they wouldn't fire properly on that either. Without knowing more about that particular PSU it is hard to make a comment. But it is likely that that too was either too low a voltage, too low a current capability, or both. Since you are mounting the R8014s directly to the underside of the Hornby points, it CANNOT in theory be an alignment issue. It has to be a firing power issue.

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Chris

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PS - Also bear in mind that the crossover parallel point motors, of which you have quite a few, will halve the load resistance (two 4 ohm point motors in parallel gives an equivalent of 2 ohms). This will have an impact on the current drawn from the power supply. Theoretically doubling the current required.

[PJR_slo]

Hi, just to add that the SwitchPilot can work with an additional PSU up to 24V DC (18V AC), and that it is capable of providing 1.5A per outlet.

 

When powered from the DCC rail only and without the CDU, that 1.5A is half that which the Elite can supply, which means if you have a few locos running and are powering other accessories via DCC, then while the point motor is activated, there may be insufficient current available.

 

I really do think that a separate PSU would be the best option.

 

Peter

[Teedoubleudee]

It was me that categorically said that ESU switchpilots do not have CDUs, they are power transistor driven.

 

I can relate to your problems RDS as I went through the same scenario. My first baseboard, still in use, was a single oval with passing loop. ie 2 points only. I bought the Switchpilot as the Hornby acc decoder was out of stock everywhere. I fitted Seep motors connected beneath the baseboard.I had no experience of either product at this stage. From day 1, one of the points worked worked (works) every time, though a slight delay between firing points is required (I know someone will say that then it must be a CDU but that is not the case - it's just a fact!).

 

The other point (both are Peco by the way), gave me no end of trouble and took me weeks to sort out. Like yours it would only move the point in one direction, it would try the other way but something appeared to be stopping it. Here are some of the remedies I tried before I finally solved it:

 

Tried several times in adjusting the Seep postition, they can be very picky apparently.

Replaced the Seep with a Peco motor

Got a replacement Switchpilot from supplier

Replaced the Hornby 1A psu supplied with my e-link with a 4A supply.

Tried an alternative 16v supply

Replaced the Peco point with a new one

Removed the over centre spring from the point

Tried different levels of horizontal point alignment

All of the above together and separately.

 

NONE of the above remedies worked for me. In the end I had to resort to using a slow action Cobalt motor. Even then the first one was taking 5 times longer to throw in one direction than the other, which threw me (pun intended) at first. However, it turned out to be a faulty motor and it's replacement has worked faultlessly ever since.

 

Now I'm not saying this is the solution for you, far from it. The one remedy you will notice I didn't try was to replace the Switchpilot with a CDU driven decoder - this is because I don't give up very easily! But it may be a remedy you want to try.

 

As the Hornby decoder was still unavailable when I came to build my second baseboard, I purchased the DCC Concept ADS8 and ADS2 decoders to drive my 9 points. These have very powerful CDUs and work without fail.

 

And finally, before someone says "You can't drive a Cobalt motor from a pulsed output decoder like the Switchpilot or indeed the Hornby ones" the answer is you CAN, by inserting a latching relay between them and providing a separate 9-12v DC supply.

 

And finally, finally, if you have the ability to access CVs such as via Hornby Railmaster you can make changes to the Switchpilot settings such as pulse duration, Peco setting  etc directly.

[Chrissaf]

Purely just for completeness of information. TWDs latching relay Colbalt motor circuit diagram is on his other post.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tortoise-point-motors-with-elink-railmaster/?p=1

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One additional comment I would make, 28 x Colbalt motors plus latching relays will not come cheap (particularly as I believe you have already purchased the Hornby motors). I would try the cheaper powerful 18 volt AC supply option first.

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Perhaps something like this:

http://www.rapidonline.com/electrical-power/vigortronix-toroidal-transformer-230v-single-primary-120va-0-18v-0-18v-88-5203

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The two secondary windings can be wired in parallel (see note) to double the output current. This transformer needs to be fitted in a case. It is 18 vac output at 120VA (equivalent to 6.67 amps total - 3.34 amps per output winding). Possibly overkill, but not that expensive at £20 plus a case.

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I didn't use this particular one, but another from the same range to build my mains powered CDU. It comes with mounting hardware and the toroidal construction means amp for amp it is smaller, lighter and cheaper than a traditional metal chassis transformer.

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Note. The output windings if wired in parallel must be connected the right way round, else the two winding outputs will be fighting each other. Orange wire connects to Black wire and Yellow wire connects to Red wire. Being mains input, the input will be protected by a fuse in the 3 pin plug (3 amp). Personally, I would include a case mounted fuse to protect the output windings - say 5 amp for example.

[PJ_model_trains]

Excellent thread, clear question, very informative answers, interesting read, this is the forum at its best.

 

I will not add much here Dave it seems well covered, it does make me wonder if it is an insufficient power issue, especially as two points are being fired.  I have Hornby points, I have Hornby point motors, I also purchased the DCC Concepts ADS-8 decoders when the Hornby one was not avaialable, excellent decoder, easy to use and set up and as TUUD says... These have very powerful CDUs and work without fail.

 

To me Extra Power stands out here, against your issue, and as stated above, maybe not enough power with your current set up.

 

Good luck.

[Flashbang]

As I said on this very forum in Oct 2013, the ESU / Bachmann Switchpilot doesn't have any internal CDU fitted. This means its rather poor in performance when operating any solenoid point motor and particularly Seep motors which have a very slightly higher current need than Hornby or Peco motors.

If you really have to use these decoders then I highly recommend the use of a 20 to 24 volt 3.5 to 4.0Amp power supply to feed the motors and not rely on the DCC to do this.  Note the higher dc voltage as this roughly equals a 16 volt ac power supply, but the available current is higher too than most readily available ac power supplies can output. I highly recommend laptop power supplies be used as these offer the current and voltage needed and are ready built and safe to use especially where mains input voltage exists.  Note the Hornby 1.0Amp nor their  4.0 amp power supply are really not suitable due to their output being just 15 volts dc!   

Then comes the use of a thicker wire for all three feeds to the motor which will help improve its performance. Minimum I recommend is 16/0.2mm equipment wire (0.5mm2) but even larger wire size will never hurt.

 

But best of all is to try to obtain an accessory decoder for solenoid motors that has a built in CDU. :-)

[Chrissaf]

Excellent thread, clear question, very informative answers, interesting read, this is the forum at its best.

 

As PJ has said. An example where the quality of the question gives a quality level of response. Something other forum members might note when asking their own questions.

 

[Chrissaf]

My CDU I mentioned in one of my previous replies. I have included below a photo of my home built mains powered CDU. I include it just to show the mounting of the toroidal transformer. This one is a 15VAC 80VA transformer, but is very similar to the one suggested in my previous reply. The black disk is a metal cupped disk sitting over a rubber washer (the same size). A 6mm bolt goes right through the centre of the transformer doughnut ring, clamping the transformer to the aluminium plate you can see below it. All the metal parts are earth bonded. The output fuse can be seen mounted on the rear panel.

/media/tinymce_upload/Powered_CDU.jpg

 

[RDS]

First of all, thank you to all who have responded to my question.  

@PJR_slo.  Despite me thinking that it could not be the Power Suppy because I had tried a different one, late last night I followed the advice from PJR_slo and tried a PSU from an old laptop.  I had a spare Sony Laptop with an output of 19.5v, 3.3A.  Success at last, thanks Peter.  I am now rewiring the first decoder because I had dismantled my wiring trying to isolate the fault, or at least see if all points fired on their own (they didn't).  This has made all the difference, so a few extra volts and a more than 3 times the current output of the standalone PSU I had tried.

 

I still maintain that I like the Switchpilot decoder but it is now obvious that it requires extra volts than those supplied by my Elite controller to fire points successfully and consistently.

 

@Chrissaf, I thanks for the very detailed reply and I would suggest that you can now labour the point about a dedicated Power Supply, because it has made all the difference.  

 

@PJ, I agree - this is the forum at it's best!

 

@Teedoubleudee, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

 

@Flashbang, you are right about the power issue and I have used 16/0.2 wire on my layout (although just as a test I tried some 7/0.2 with the larger PSU and it seemed  to work fine)

 

Thanks once again because with renewed enthusiasm I am now working on the other 21 points, connected into 3 more Switchpilots.  Each decoder has 3 pairs of points and a separate one, making 7 points per decoder.

[PJ_model_trains]

Good luck. You will be glad when it is completed but it is work that has to be done.  ;o)

 

I welcome your comments on the extra power, I welcome anyones comments with more powerful decoders and Hornby points. As mentioned above the ASD-8 fires without fail, the extra power is there which is also notIcable as the point switches, a definate loud click. Constantly restarting RM due to the signals issues has resulted in me having to replace 3 points as bits came away. I am monitoring this as resetting points everytime RM is restarted is a lot of wear and tare and replacing points when everything is put together is not easy.

[Teedoubleudee]

Glad you got it sorted RDS.

 

PJ, I agree with you with regard to the excessive force provided by the ADS2 and ADS8 CDUs. I think I will replace mine in time before they damage the points. You can prevent the motors being fired at RM startup but I'm sure you know that ;-)

[RDS]

... resetting points everytime RM is restarted ...

Hi PJ, I will not be selecting the option of resetting upon start-up for the very reason you mention.  

Any points that require changing will be done by an RM program as and when they are required, or even manually at times.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Dave

 

I agree totally, that is what I am doing but, HRMS want us to set them everytime, they mustn't force this on us.  I know they have told me in discussions they should be reset by RM on start up.

 

I only have 18 sets of points and to reset every one every time RM start is not good. Unfortunately with so much signal testing I have had to have them first tested according to Train-Tech remembering the last sequence then having RM set them every time I restart the program to get a clear set up as programmed in RM. Some days testing signals I may restart RM 15-20 times that is a lot of wear and tare, on every set of points, and this is to help HRMS not running RM, just testing signals to report faults.

 

A second reason I would disagree with RM doing this is, if running our trains we have a fault and have to restart, numberous points have changed and we would not want RM to reset them as every train would have to be taken back to its start position.  If anything we would ask HRMS to make RM so that it remembers signal and points last setting. I am sure this was asked for a long time ago.

 

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Dave & PJ,

At first I didn't bother to set points or signals at startup, but I hit a problem with the blue/grey point indicators corrupting my screen display, and the only solution which was offered by HRMS was to set points at startup. I configured my points so that only those on the visible part of my double track mainline had a startup position, so this halves the amount of time it takes. I thought I could do the same for my signals, but RM sets every signal, whether you have given a startup position or not. Incidentally, PJ, you can't configure a startup position of single or double yellow for multi-aspect signals - the only choice you have is stop or clear.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray, yes I am aware of this, it also includes feathers.

 

HRMS want us to set points when RM loads, this must remain optional. But, I do think there is an issue to consider. I think HRMS are thinking on the grounds that we start our trains from the same place everytime so RM should set the points and signals in readiness. Although the theory sounds good, that may not always be the situation, we may have run 'x' number of programs and stop for lunch to run the remain programs for the days schedue on our return. We need to pick up where we left off. This brings us to the other issue which is that we may have a fault that causes us to restart RM, this causes major problems as most of the points and signals have changed and if reset we have to take every train back to the start position and start all over again.

 

The way round this is for RM to remember the point and signal positions, I think the more we run programs, you run more than any I think Ray, the ability to restart in the same position will be wanted. But, to do this HRMS would have to add the yellow and double yellow signal aspects as you rightly say, and also add for feathers on or off.

 

What are your thoughts on this, if more than one reply or could end up a discussion we may be better to start another thread so as not to drift on this one?

 

PJ

[Teedoubleudee]

PJ, Have you requested this for a future RM update?

[tony_forward]

Thinking outside the box... I had a similar problem on the exhibition layout when first installing the double slips. One end of each slip simply fired only one way! Peco point motors fixed directly to the underside of the slip Using Traintech PC2 decoders.

After swapping point motors, removing and replacing them and removing my already sparse hair, as a last resortIsquirted some WD40 on the slip blades,the tiebar and the point motor - problem solved - three months ago and still working!

 

[RDS]

...  If anything we would ask HRMS to make RM so that it remembers signal and points last setting ...

Surely, if you do not reset your points on RM start up, they will automatically be set at the last points setting.  There is no need to get RM to do this otherwise it will still try to move the point, even though it is already at the required position. (or am I missing something?)

[St1ngr4y]

 

The way round this is for RM to remember the point and signal positions, I think the more we run programs, you run more than any I think Ray, the ability to restart in the same position will be wanted. But, to do this HRMS would have to add the yellow and double yellow signal aspects as you rightly say, and also add for feathers on or off.

 

 

Hi PJ,

All of the programs I have developed run a train (or loco) from position A to position B. The vast majority of them start off by setting points and signals for the route, followed by an acceleration of the train, signals changing as they are passed, sound loco's whistling or sounding horn at appropriate places, then a deceleration to the finishing position. If the finishing position happens to be where there is an uncoupler, maybe a few commands to uncouple the loco from the train. When I finish a session, I never interrupt an executing program half way through. The trains always stop at a place on the layout where I have another program to take that train somewhere else. So from my point of view, I don't really mind which way the points and signals are set at the end of a session, because I know that the first program I run in the next session will set all of the points and signals needed for that train's journey. The only exceptions to this are my newly installed scissors crossovers, powered by ADS-2FX decoders. These have to be left set in certain positions, otherwise the ADS onboard latching relays can cause a short circuit on the next power-up, so I have created a closedown program which sets these points the way I want just before I closedown RM.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Ray

 

Many thanks for your comments. I hink you have run more programs than most of us so I value your comments.

 

I think we are all singing from the same hymn sheet here, not having RM set points and signals at start up. So maybe RM remembering signals and points isn't required, unless we had a situation that caused RM to stop and we had to restart it. A stop due to a short circuit can happen with a derailment but RM allows us to clear it and continue so that shouldn't be an issue. 

 

Reading your notes Ray, are you only running one train/loco at a time. From A to B and then letting it start another program when the train gets to B?  Have you ever wished you could run more than one program at a time?

[RDS]

...  Have you ever wished you could run more than one program at a time?

Hi PJ

You don't need to be able to run more than one program at a time in order to run more than one train.  I regularly run up to 8 at a time (soon to be more when I get all these pesky points wired up!)

[St1ngr4y]

...  Have you ever wished you could run more than one program at a time?

Hi PJ

You don't need to be able to run more than one program at a time in order to run more than one train.  I regularly run up to 8 at a time (soon to be more when I get all these pesky points wired up!)

Hi PJ,

That's where the Chain command comes in, effectively allowing you to merge two or three programs into one.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

I Ray

Many thanks I am playing with that now  ;o)

Back to topic

PJ