points using Elite, with RM

[Yelrow]

Hi, i have got all my point motors firing again, from Schematic, powered from track connection of Elite, but the firing is weak. I have a hornby decoder, plus ASD 8. Could they be connected to the 15 amp supply, on the other side of Elite, and if so, would they still work from schematic. john. I looked at using Elink. but Elite is on comm 4, and given my french windows probs, am unable to find comm 1,2,3.. john

[RDS]

Hi John

I think you mean the 15v, rather than 15amps, supply on the other side of the Elite.  Your point decoders can be supplied from this output and yes your schematic (I assume you mean on RailMaster) will still work.  This is because the data side of the decoder is different from the power side.  It is the data side that the schematic controls so you still need to take your data from the track but the voltage to operate the decoder and hence the point motors can be taken separately.  I have Switchpilot Decoders and the output from the Elite was insufficient, so I have ended up using an old laptop PSU and the main advantage here as far as I can see, has been the increased voltage which is 19.5v.

[Chrissaf]

John,

RDS is correct with regard to his ESU SwitchPilot decoders, but you have stated you have have "a hornby decoder, plus ASD 8" I assume you meant the "DCC Concepts ADS8" not ASD8 and a Hornby R8247 decoder. I think RDS may have got a little confused.

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The Hornby R8247 does not support a separate DC power input, and according to the on-line manual, the power input for the ADS8 is either DCC for DCC control OR DC for a DC controlled layout, but not both together.

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Thus the answer to your question is NO you can't connect your decoders to a DC power supply and still have point and click control from within RM and/or Elite buttons. The digital information to control the switching of points is carried via the DCC power connections, so if you remove these from your decoders you lose the electrical path that provides this controlling function.

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I also suffered from weak point throwing using Hornby R8247 accessory decoders with my Peco PL-10WE point motors. My solution was to build a relay interface board, use the R8247 to operate relays that in turn fired the point motors via a powerful CDU with a point operating voltage higher than 19 volts.

.

It is strange that you say the ADS8 fires the point motors weakly. Can't remember who, but at least two other forum contributors made a comment recently that they thought the ADS8 operated their points too fiercely. The DCC Concepts documentation makes a specific point of mentioning that their ADS8 decoder is compatible with Peco, Hornby and Seep solenoid point motors and has a powerful integrated CDU built in. So if the ADS8 throws YOUR point motors weakly then look at the thickness of the wire between the ADS8 and the point motor - is it too thin? Also look at point motor alignment, is the movement stiff or sticky?

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The Elite comms port used has no effect with regard to your weak point firing issue, it is irrelevant.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi, i have got all my point motors firing again, from Schematic, powered from track connection of Elite, but the firing is weak. I have a hornby decoder, plus ASD 8. Could they be connected to the 15 amp supply, on the other side of Elite, and if so, would they still work from schematic. john. I looked at using Elink. but Elite is on comm 4, and given my french windows probs, am unable to find comm 1,2,3.. john

Hello John,

As Chris says, the ADS8 should not produce a weak firing. The R8247, however, only has one CDU which is shared by all four ports, so if you need to fire ports on this decoder consecutively, you must allow at least 2 seconds between each button push on your schematic to allow the CDU to recharge. Other than that, I would back up everything Chris has said.

Ray

 

 

[Yelrow]

Ray, Chrissaf, RDS, thanks, it may not be that the ADS8, is weak, when connected. At the moment i have only got the point motors, wired up, next to points,to and my 72 year old hearing, they all sound the same. Because of where they are, i cant actually stand next to them, and her indoors, cannot hear a difference.. They are all wired with same size wire, so will connect one at a time, and watch. Going to make up, a sort of a bus, eg, feed each track, other than relying on points, so, we will see. Watch this space. john.

[Chrissaf]

John,

I think you will find they will get louder when they are actually attached to the points. With the point attached there is more metal slapping on metal (i.e switch blade movement). Any weakness in point operation will, of course, only be evident when the point motor is attached to the point and subject to the additional mechanical load of the point toggle spring.

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With regard to point solenoid firing wire, I would suggest 16/0.2mm minimum and preferably 24/0.2mm wire.

[Yelrow]

Me again, whilst i am asking silly questions, have just noticed that in B controller in rm, there is a select option. It was my previous understanding that RM, and the select, were not compatible. If for the purpose of this question, they are, could i still fire my ponts from schematic, if a used the select as controller B. I presume i will again struggle, as select would need usb, or would it. Elite is in com 4. john

[96RAF]

I presume the Selecft is listed as it could be a Walkabout to an Eite on A channel.

If so I can see no reason why it can't be used on channel B for points only As long as RM is taking account of Select points addressing issues and the track plan is so setup as well.

Rob

[Yelrow]

RAF, would it need a usb lead, as if so, i have a problem. john

[Chrissaf]

John,

I provided an answer to that question in another post. I can't remember which one off hand, but the gist of the reply was that I thought the 'Select' was listed in RM in error. Without a USB port on the Select there is nowhere to connect your RM PC to. Remember that RM is developed by an outsourced software company on behalf of Hornby. The first release being some years ago. It is possible that Hornby intended to release a RM compatible Select version that never went into production. There are other features also listed in RM for which there is no currently launched hardware, take 'Loco Detection' for example.

[Yelrow]

Chrissaf, i have been using telephone cable wires. EG, you get 6 inside an outer. Have no idea of size, so will measure. My dad was telcon engineer, and have , and still do use these for all DC connections to Transformers, without any probs. john

[96RAF]

RAF, would it need a usb lead, as if so, i have a problem. john

 

 No John it would talk through the Elites usb, but having thought about it as a walkabout it would also have the same com port number so as Chris says it's probably an RM error to have it listed at all.

 

[96RAF]

 

 john I've used network cable (much the same as phone cable) for my points without problems, although I do have a cdu. 

[RDS]

.... I think RDS may have got a little confused ...

 

 

 Hi Chris

I am not so sure that 'confused' is the correct term.  I had incorrectly assumed that other decoders were the same as my SwitchPilot that can keep the Data and Power separate and therefore accept an external supply.

[Chrissaf]

RDS,

I was being polite......

Chris

[Chrissaf]

John,

As an ex telephone engineer myself (an original Post Office telephones apprentice), I can tell you that standard telephone internal wiring is solid conductors of 0.63mm diameter. I know there are loads of people on here using this type of cable / wire successfully which is why I have not commented on it before, not wanting to make a rod for my own back. But where high currents are required e.g solenoid motors, you really do need to minimise the resistance in the wire compared to the already low resistance of the solenoid motor (typically less than 5 ohms). If it works for you (and others here) fine, but thicker wire would be better. This could be a contributory factor to weak solenoid operation, particularly on the Hornby R8247 decoders that in my opinion struggle to provide sufficient voltage output (see theory example below). Also, being a solid conductor it will, over time, be prone to fatigue induced breakages. As you have found out the hard way John, DCC appears to be more prone to issues with its wiring environment compared to DC. DC is more forgiving, which is probably why years of working with telephone grade wire has been fine with you so far.

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Some theory.

Ohms Law states V(volts) = I(current) x R(resistance). So let's assume a solenoid current of 3 amps and a resistance in the wiring of 0.5 ohms**. In most cases a 0.5 ohm resistance is not worth worrying about, but at higher currents even a slight resistance can impact the circuit operation. In the above example 1.5 volts (3 x 0.5) would be lost in the wiring. For solenoid point motors a loss of 1.5 volts firing voltage can make all the difference.

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Following on: Ohms Law states W(watts) = I x I x R, so in the above example the wattage being dissipated in the wire is 3 x 3 x 0.5 = 4.5 watts. Fortunately, solenoid pulses are very short duration, particularly when using a CDU, but if 3 amps were being passed continuously through a 0.5 ohm wire connection it would get warm.

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Note** the thicker the wire is the lower the resistance will be.

[Yelrow]

Chrissaf, my dad used to drive a green van with a ladder on top. Worked for them all his life. Ended up in AN control. john

[Yelrow]

Chrissaf, hence my original supply of wire was about 20 strands thick. Will have a look for thicker wire, not so easy to find here. john

[Chrissaf]

John, would that be Advice Note (AN) control? For other's reading this, an AN was a basically an instruction to carry out work, typically provision of a circuit, for example a telephone line.

[Yelrow]

Dont know. he became office bound, and controlled and issued work, as opposed to doing it. Promo, i think, sounds right. john

[Fishmanoz]

Just going back to the original question john, I think it is now clear the answer is no.  Also, we know your wiring was all ok and working with eLink, so it will still be ok and work with Elite.  Even if thicker wire might be better.

 

However, if you rewire to work the points with eLink, you will have longer runs most probably.  That means the higher resistance of your current wire may be more of an issue.

 

But I also think it should now be clear to you just how much complication there is in using the 2 controllers, with very little gain except not putting the eLink in the bottom drawer and forgetting about it for now.  Melting points aside, and that isn't in any sense a controller issue, the eLink was working fine by itself, and so will the Elite.