Is OO gauge live steam range given up?

[96RAF]

When you say ‘... a short production run of ‘new’ live steam...’ do you mean Hornby is producing some new live steam types or your guys are refurbishing existing second hand stock to as new condition. 

By refurbish I mean - return by repair or replacement of piece parts to a defined ‘close to new‘ condition.

Rob 

[PlanesTV]

All I can say at the moment is "watch this space" and, because it will be a very limited run, watch this space VERY closely but whatever happens it will a guide to how Hornby Live Steam is still viewed (as if several sold at over £2000 recently was not guide enough).

 

You say "you guys" so I assume you see through PlanesTV.

 

I should explain that whilst I always appear as PlanesTV (that's the business I have been running and just retired from - an historic name on this forum) I am on the committee of the OO Live Steam Club and firmly believe that Hornby Live Steam is a misunderstood marvel with an unfair reputation.

 

I believe it has a future but not through going back into production but 'reviving' the 10,000 plus out there put away when virtually new and now gathering dust.

[Go_West]

I did read on the 00LSC form that a university was getting involved with a view to improve the steam plant and make it more controllable this was some 5 years ago and it might be this that will involve a better engine. As for servicing old engines with new parts is not the answer as what people have asked for is a new engine a GWR LMS or SR maybe I think I have covered rebuilding into new types of loco  and control systems so I would be intrigued to see what they come up with?

[PlanesTV]

That contact went quiet and so did that with another university who intended to use a loco body to experiment with 3D printing using PEEK high temperature plastic.

 

One potentially simpler solution would be to get (pay) Hornby to produce a batch of (say) Battle of Britain bodies using the same high temperature plastic they used for the original A4s and A3s. Apparently they were worried about damage to newer moulds so used early Triang moulds. I wonder what other early Triang moulds are sat there redundant,

 

The question then would be how would you produce the mechanicals?

 

Gowest I was immensely impressed by your 9F conversion. Do you have any idea of the practicalities and time economies of scale to produce, say, 100 9F chassies by modifying Mallards?

[Go_West]

Planes tv

first can I say that of the 2 locos that Hornby built the A3 is the best engineered and these chassis are the best ones to use in any rebuilding of new engines and of the A3 the last production runs with the removeable chimney had many parts improved on.

i thought I wrote about the build somewhere of the 9f giving all the details of its construction but can't find it as I was going to see what I did back then as the little grey cells are unable to cover your question.

the 9f would be a tall order for the first of a new range of live steam locos and your coment  a SR spam can is the one that would be the easiest to build using the Hornby A3 chassis as it's a 4 6 2 with a large body.

I did cover this in the live steam clubs web site and it's still there or was the last time I looked the engineering is also more straightforward just the tender would be a new build as it's only a 6 wheeler.

i do not think making brass body's up from kits is the way to go for a Run of a 100 and a plastic shell for both the tender and loco will be needed.

a second thing to consider in getting to a cost figure is did Hornby over build these engines and can savings on parts be made and a look at a way to make the same layout with less parts and machine time Is a must.

once all these points have been look at from start to finish and costs worked out only then could a selling price be established.

[Go_West]

If Hornby had built a new engine what type of new live steam loco would you liked to have seen?

[PlanesTV]

My understanding is the plan was to produce a Black 5 next. Mixed traffic, all regions, 4-6-0 wheel arrangement offering more possibilities including Great Western. A prototype was built and regularly runs at Club roadshows but back to your considered insight Gowest I agree that any new production now would be based on a pacific chassis. 

 

 

I have championed the revival of live steam for nearly 10 years now for 3 reasons

 

1. I got to love it very quickly and escaped all the agro because (I see in hindsight) I never got an instruction book! Just a coffee stained photocopy of someones personal notes when I bought a second hand controller with my brand new Dwight D. I just didn't understand why others were struggling and it was years before I discovered the problems in the instruction book.
2. The brand has been unfairly demonised. The bad reputation is largely due to the experience of the majority who DID follow the instruction book and were led to crash after crash by a combination of bad advice and actual errors. "The best way to learn is on the oval of track" was just begging for trouble and the paragraph "Setting your locomotive in motion" got the lights and the whistle the wrong way round inviting drivers to open the throttle at exactly the wrong time.  If those 10,000 or so owners could only be discovered now, re-enthused and supported or their dormant models can be moved on (with a new instruction book and close support) there would be no need to start production again (yet).
3. There is considerable development potential. The OO Live Steam Club's £50 add on "Live Drive" has already made control easier and you Gowest and others have shown that radio control (which could run side by side with DCC) is an easy development. 

 

 

Sadly I came to it after it had effectively been discontinued, 2009 - when Hornby and dealers were struggling to dump 5 year old stock at half the price it had originally sold at. The success of the Club that I started suggests that if I had come to it earlier we might have arrested the decline

 

Being realistic now I accept it will never be a mass market - it needs a lot of space to enjoy fully and the owner needs a knowledge and propensity to do maintenance work but the rewards are enormous and very probably worth paying a premium for at small batch levels of a few hundred. 

 

One big market limitation is that only A4s and A3s were made.

 

My question to you Gowest is, with your experience of converting Hornby Live Steam chassies, how easy (or difficult) would it be to set up a programme of work to convert, say 100, existing models to (say) Battle of Britains or Coronations if Hornby could be pursaded (and paid!) to mould the bodies using high temperature plastic? You could play a big part in Hornby Live Steam's revival!

 

We'll talk about 9F production later.....that would be my choice for the next Live Steam model.

[2e0dtoeric]

Although I wasn't asked, and IF I could afford it (doubtful!), I'd got for a 9F, with a Britannia  close second.

[Go_West]

2e0dtoeric

funny you should mention Britannia I have already found a brass kit for this engine and was looking closely at it as a project 

Planestv

I'm not sure what to say I like you think boiling water to produce the power for 6 coaches is a little marvel in engineering but with the best will in the world most people would stick to the standard way of building and running a railway that is electric motors in plastic bodies these people will never be shifted to try or think live steam I have meet hundreads of railway models and most time and time again do not  understand how live steam works and those that do point out all the down side of owning and running live steam and it's not just the control so it's never going to replace the standard 00 gauge electric stuff Even Hornby in the promotion film used an electric train to run back and couple up to a carriage I beleave even with the clubs controller running back and stopping the very second the hocks latch up it difficult 

from the start I could see that to run live steam like the electric stuff was never going to work in this fashion what was needed was the one thing these engines lack unlike there big brothers were brakes so I set to work thinking up a braking system that way you could just like the full size engine apply braking gradually to bring the engine under control and as the couplings were made wack the brakes full on the move the regulator to closed release the brakes and put in forward gear and move off with your train.

having said that if you look at any invention say TV what was the first mechanical system a scan rate of 8 lines and a very poor picture now colour tv using LEDs so using this development if a new look at the system of live steam could a better design and control be built say as mentioned?

The Battle of Britain model would be very easy to do from the chassis point of view just one small machining operation to bring the cylinders inline with the wheels and as these unrebuilt engines had inside valve gear all the outside bits of an A4 can be dumped another plus in the LNER cross head is the same to look at as the B of B it only the wheels sets that are needed and on my West Country I used the pony touch from a China built Hornby loco and never used the parts that came in the kit.

i have just been running my 9f as it always performs well and seeing so many wheels and rods moving makes it one of my favourite locos.

[null_null981707818694]

Wow, it seem that I triggered a lot of reactions here 😆

I don't often visit this forum, and to see that a heated discution went on.

I've been reading this with intrest.

 

About half a year ago I bought a Mallard set, that a friend of mine picked up for me.

Sinse about two weeks ago I picked up my live steam Mallard set, up at a friend who kept it for me until I was in the UK.

Arriving  with my relitives in Leicester, the where to wrack of a Flaying Scotsman that I bought with AC models also waiting.

 

My trip was very well planed, because that weekend the OOLS had there summer meeting.

I became a member as soon as I bought my Mallard set, something I would advice to everyone who has or is thinking to go into Hornby live steam.

So being in contact with them, I was invited to come, and bring my new toy with me.

And here I have to say, I was glad that I took the invitation.

It begone with a very warm welcome by the club members.

Than they took there time to inspect my Mallard, showed me where to give attention to, what parts wear out and need to be replaced, it  was a facenating tutorial.

Than they let me use their club track to get aquainted with running  the locomotive.

So I had a super day with them and made some new friends.

 

The question, this whole discution started with, has hornby droped the live steam line, well I think this is answered here.

Will it ever be produced again, I think for 99% NO, at least never again in this form.

Is the system no good, the answer is no, it works perfect.

So why did it fail?

Well I think it a bit the clumsiness of Hornby them self.

It was not the price, If you see people by O gauge live steam locos starting at £2000, and they sell them like sweets in a candy store.

Than in copare, this is a relative cheap product.

I saw people say," well for that money I have a few electrical trains", than I say rubbis.

Look a the total cost of DCC and all the rim ram that goas with it, and it also will cost you finely a lot money.

To me it is pure failure in marketing, not believing in the product you sell.

Hornby sold something without thecnical support, even with wrong instructions, and than pulling back from their product, leavig those who believed in it, cold.

 

A product like this defnitly needs a support system, because it's so technical, that you need a tutorial, to alone get you acquainted with it.

It was not ready of the shelve, it was not a childs play, perhaps you might say that this was not a product for Hornby.

I my vieuw they had to start the OOLS club, even before the Pruduct came to marked.

Because what these guys, of the OOLS are doing now, is what Hornby should have  done while they lunched there product.

Unfortunately, now thar there is a support group, and it's alas already over, and that a real shame.

 

That beining sad.

For those who are facenated by steam, technic and  this awesome piece of engineering, live steam is defenatly worth investing in.

But at the same time, and it doesn't matter how great your engineering skils are, go for advice, and the OOLS is a perfect medium for this.

For those who say, well the range stayed limited, I say be creative.

That's why I bought the two Scotsman wracks, I starded to resore them, aigain with the great help of the OOLS.

But at least I have by doing this, great insides in how the technical aspect is working.

And with some of my own skils combined, I turning one in to a late A3 livery, so there will be a complete new loco standing there.

 

Conclusion, hornby live steam was a great product, but sadly was not believed in by the people who produced it.

And definatly not a product for the fine scaler, who loves it senery, near reality perfection.

But those who are looking for something else than strait of the shelf, this is a great product to invest in.

This is a product for people who care more for engineering than fine scale.

It's a total diffrent approch, a diffrent discipline…

Cheers,

Danny

[Go_West]

I think this one has been covered well but they must be so What Ifs?

i can see parts to replace bits that pack up could be a problem as they start to dwindle away.

[The son of Triangman]

No sign of these limited run brand new models yet. I am still waiting to see them.

 

"If you see people buy O gauge live steam locos starting at £2000, and they sell them like sweets in a candy store".  If only this was correct, my model shop would still be open.  Sadly such high end sales are rare in the real world. Recession, uncertaincy such as Brexit, other expenditure such as usual household bills, regional issues, lack of disposable income, poverty minimum wage pay all affect such sales. Price always affects the volume of sales of a product, the higher the cost the lower the sales the more niche a market becomes.

 

Hit the market with a geat product at an affordable for all price and you are on a winner. Live steam in OO will always be a niche market eliteist product, not aimed at the masses but generally aimed at those earning good money with disposable income. A luxury product. This is the market any new production needs to aim for, 10,000 units is unlikely, most of the old 10,000 units will have been bought when the prices were dropped for disposal of the range when you could pick up a new live steamer for an affordable £99.

700- 1400 units is a more realistic sales figure unless the price is more in the affordable range.

[96RAF]

Flogging a dead horse with regard to a new Hornby live steam range in my opinion it will never happen.

Rob

[The son of Triangman]

Totally agree Rob.

[NWR-Gordon-4]

I agree too. I can't ever see Hornby bringing back the Live Steam range. Could you imagine the price, if it was brought back?

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[Muzza]

 

 

I agree with you. If one wanted the complete Live Steam set, they would need their own layout. To me this just can't be mixed with standard OO Gauge locomotives, despite the standard range and Live Steam range being the same gauge of OO.

 

GNR-Gordon-4

Sorry GNR-Gordon-4, that is not true.

Having moved to a new town around 6 months ago, I have been constructing a new layout. It consists of 3 main lines - 2 parallel circuits and a third which loops back over itself in a squashed figure 8 configuration.

Each of these three circuits are wired to run on 12v DC, DCC or Live Steam simply by use of switches. I can have a Triang Princess running alongside a live steam A3 (or better still, LS A4 & A3 together), with DCC on the third track.

Using the OOLS Club Live-Drive controllers, I can have an LS loco pulling 6 carriages running up and down 1 in 40 gradients (with curves on them) under perfect control. After the loco has finished its run, I can have a DC or DCC loco running on the same track within seconds - even pulling the same carriages or wagons.

When Hornby first announced the LS range, I thought it was the most exciting thing that OO model railways had seen and I still think that way. Clearly, they don't suit everyone, but OO Live Steam has been my first consideration when building my last three layouts.

Many thanks to the bright minds of the OOLS Club (of which I am a member) for making it easier to keep these little gems running.

Murray

[ikebaddog]

That sounds interesting Murry, along the lines of what I have in mind ( first time model railway for me ) i'm going to have mine in the garden, but would also like to run Dc alongside the miniature steam miracles of engineering known as OO LS. Have you any pictures of your layout?

John

[PlanesTV]

Agreed, Hornby Live Steam (if ever reissued) will never be a mass market product but it almost was. 1000 units a year at £500 each should be very achievable though.

 

You are quite wrong Margate-Richmond to assume the vast majority of sales were at discount prices. The OO Live Steam Club has had access to the pattern of sales and the vast majorty was in the first 2 years after launch (2003) before the heavy discounting and most of those were sets at £500 or more.Prices only fell when sales plumetted. Even with prices almost halved (to below DCC) it took until 2010 to sell out locos that were built in 2004, such was the poor reputation (undeserved) that the brand earned.

 

See the sales pattern below.

 

If it was to come back it would be based on standard 'mechanics' that could be adapted for different wheel arrangements and short run body production probably 3D printed with high temperature plastic or ceramic. It would probably be superdetailed too. When launched Hornby used old moulds with little detail yet they still sold approaching 10,000 at the high original price

In the meantime there are thousands of dormant live steam Mallards out there virtually new begging for batch conversion to Coronation, Merchant Navy, American K4 etc.

 

Those who think it's niche have probably never experienced the thrill of starting a heavy train off with a hint of wheelslip and slowly bringing it to an exact stop having had to judge just when to 'power down' and not get stalled on the curve before the station. Stall on that curve and it's a bigger thrill restarting smoothly. Come and have a go at the OO Live Steam Roadshow.

 

As I write this I cant wait to get out to my big shed and fire up... now which one of the 35? 

[PlanesTV]

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[96RAF]

There is a cottage industry going begging there PlanesTV making alternative bodies for existing chassis.

Not outwith the wit of man given today’s use at home technology.

Rob

[Go_West]

I think the live steam club miss a building a new model to the range when ideas were put forward they have the designer of the system in the club and could use him to advise what would be the best way to go 

the Duchess under construction on the forum is a possible and ours like the West Country would be very easy to produce and members have fitted bodies to the chassis with great success but it looks like there are no takers yet but you never know other out in the market place are still building gas fired steam engines and selling them so who knows!

ken

[The son of Triangman]

Some places were selling them off at £99 PlanesTV to get rid of stocks. Six years to sell stocks as you mention, not exactly a fast seller. Certainly not down it's undeserved reputation, just a poor seller because of pricing(excluding the cut price sell offs), a niche product for those with disposable income.  

 

The economic climate is very bad at present, it isn't the time for a new range OO live steam.  It is a niche product, you could pay the car insurance with £500 just about, a lot of people are cutting the luxuries like live steam out to pay the bills right now and with the models going up in price all the time on the likes of ebay with the quick buck sellers getting in on the act it will only become more unobtainable. Maybe once Brexit is out of the way and settled once and for all either way then people will have disposable income again.

 

New bodies for the existing chassis is a good idea, 3d printing is a slow and low resolution process unless you want to go to the big commerical printers, you can see the layering on home made models.

 

I am still sceptical that there is such a big marketplace today for such a product unless it's for box collectors and those wanting to make a fast buck on their investment.

 

For now live steam in OO is a dead technology outside of the OO live steam clubs.

[Go_West]

Planes tv

the poor sale in 2011 might be due to lack of models for it was about then that I was trying to buy from shops and could not find the models I want as they were already out of stock my last engine was an A4 GF from a shop in Bristol.

ken

[Muzza]

That sounds interesting Murry, along the lines of what I have in mind ( first time model railway for me ) i'm going to have mine in the garden, but would also like to run Dc alongside the miniature steam miracles of engineering known as OO LS. Have you any pictures of your layout?

John

Hi John,

This links to a video of my layout in the garden. It still exists although is a bit overgrown and the sun takes its toll on the plastic sleepers eventually. I now live 1000 miles away and the current tennants of the house (my sons) have no real interest in it.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hM-ki5HYKY

Here are two photos of my current project.

/media/tinymce_upload/bf67eca190fff46d8d18bd1521733950.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/ba5fadce1d1837c841418395bf757ad3.jpg

[Go_West]

Muzza

ive seen your video before and what a great add for live steam seeing these two locos going what live steam do best it's hard to understand why the sales didn't go through the roof. The number of carriages the speed the smooth running of real steam driven 00 gauge engines in my view cannot be bet and your video just shows that.

at the slower speeds you can here the safety valves lift showing that these two engines are in tip top condition thanks for sharing the video with us it makes me wanting to fire one up right now but have to go shopping but when it get back home look out!

Great video and must be seen

Ken