No more live steam?

[The son of Triangman]

With the destruction of 9000 Hornby moulds of models no longer in production it looks like a live steam comeback has recieved it's final nail. If live steam did comeback what locos should be made as new moulds would be needed?

[NWR-Gordon-4]

I very much doubt Live Steam will be making a return. I will eat my top hat if it does and I don't even own one!  😆 😉 😀

 

I believe they are expensive to produce and are very diffcult to control, with many people didn't and still don't know how to run them, so they were boxed up and put away; In some cases, even sold on. In around 2004, these were priced by RRP, of around £500.00, so with inflation and what not, I am guessing Live Steam locomotives would cost near £1,000.00, or over easily. I very much doubt the return of the Live Steam range, for these two reasons.

 

If Live Steam did make a return and that's a very BIG if, I am guessing that the same kind of locomotives would be released. I would never expect some sort of small tank engine, not even an 0-6-0, as there simply would not be the space for all of the mechanism for the locomotive to have live steam.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[96RAF]

If I was Hornby bringing back live steam it would be in O gauge, more room to install the kit hence more scope for a range of loco types. Also the use of modern production techniques could allow them to introduce ground breaking methodology to produce steam, maybe miniaturised electric car battery technology to enable rechargable locos.

[2e0dtoeric]

AS RAF put, but with radio control, so no need for track power.

Possibly a 'charging track' section, akin to the DCC programming track idea - charge the on-board battery via the wheels, to avoid fiddly and fragile plugs and sockets.

Or even real coal-fired? No, someone might burn their little fingers! Elf n safety!

[Go_West]

It's not just the tooling for bodies but all the other parts which could amount to about 30 mounds and fixtures to build one engine if the tooling has gone then to remake this would make a new project too costly as Rob may know when at Marconi all M.O.D jigs and tooling belong to the government as they would be part of a defence contract and the company does not have the right to scrap tooling and any one doing so might end up in the Tower of London hanging by his thumbs.

so let's just see Hornby get back into being the market leader in what ever it makes trains,cars and planes and back into profitability

good luck Hornby

ken

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@RAF96

 

If the Live Steam range was brought back in O Gauge, your probably looking at a retail price of £1,500.00, realistically. Hornby don't produce anything in this gauge, so probably won't happen. I can't really see Live Steam coming back.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[96RAF]

Jacob

You can pay that price for an 0 Gauge electric so LS would factor that up by 100%.

Hornby will never remake LS as they have their hands full getting their present range back into profitability.

My post was a nostalgic dewy eyed dream.

 

Eric

ElfinSaveMe - one reason why some LS tends to use paraffin tablets to fire locos rather than a meths burner like the old Mamod I had as a kid. Might have singed my fingers and hair occasionally but I am still here despite playing with dangerous toys and all the wiser for it.

 

Ken

Everything we scrapped had to be signed off by MoD QA, although we had been known to scrap the same thing several times over at intervals with a different label attached. I thought hanging by your thumbs was reserved for transgressing the forum rules.

[NWR-Gordon-4]

Live Steam was popular at first, but it's complicated set up and running, soon lost it's popularity, giving it a bad name; I do think this a reason why it departed so quickly and why it won't come back.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[Muzza]

Live Steam was popular at first, but it's complicated set up and running, soon lost it's popularity, giving it a bad name; I do think this a reason why it departed so quickly and why it won't come back.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

GNR-Gordon-4,

You obviously have an opinion on Hornby Live Steam and you may well be right. But I notice that you say that you don't own one. Have you actually experienced it, or simply gone on what someone else has said?

Yes, they require a little more setting up and concentration while operating than DC or DCC, but that is part of their charm. With a little experience (and the right instructions), operation is not difficult at all.

Clearly OO Live Steam is not for everyone, but anyone who puts in a little effort will be amply rewarded.

Hornby were brave and visionary in bringing Live Steam to OO gauge and I thank them for it. Why it was not a commercial success, I don't fully understand, but I have a fleet of LS locos that prove that they were a technological success.

I would encourage anyone who has one sitting dormant in the cupboard to dust it off and give it a proper go.

For the record, I don't think Hornby will reintroduce them either, but there was plenty of development potential as people such as @gowest are proving (Live steam P2 with operating valve gear? - brilliant).

[Go_West]

 30 odd years ago a friend of mine owned a toy shop and was a Hornby stockist he asked me to build a railway for his shop window which I did this consisted of a station and 6 foot of track the train a tank engine and coach would appear from inside the shop and run round to the station in the window as it approached the station buffers it slowed down and came to a halt it waited 2 minutes and then slowly at first pulled out of the station in reverse back in side the shop it would do this all day back and forth.

this all long before microprocessor and some are happy to run trains under this type of system and maybe several trains at a time.

If you ever get the chance to see the Live steam club at a show they can give tuition and a driving lesson on these little marvels and it might just click for you I have let children operate my engines both girls and boy and some seem to take to it like a duck to water some not so good, so gnr Gordon 4 has said if you have one stored away get it out and give it a try it might just click with you but remember put 4 to 6 coaches behind the engine you will find it easier to control. As for live steam making a come back it is very unlikely if all the jigs have gone but you never know I'm waiting for drain pipe trousers to come back into fashion as I still have some in the draw?

ken

[Clickernick]

Well said Ken,!!

The Hornby Live steam Models are very much alive and well as we constantly support the over 600 active OO Live Steam Club members around the globe!!

We (The OO Live Steam Club) are always received well at shows and recently at the London MEE one visitor was so impressed he went on ebay staight away and bought one whilst observing and experiencing the marvel that they are.

Most of our members were of the original disgruntled and disparing variety who parted with there hard earned cash for what seemed a complete lemon!

Now they have mastered the 'correct' modus operandi they are completely smitten and go on to builld modified and re-bodied varieties like your good self,, you could say, proper minature steam modelling by  enthusiastic engineers!!

We have got to know the locos so well now that we can pinpoint a fault with surprising accuracy and have the spares and experience to solve the issues.

Hornby to remake them????? I doubt it very much in the current climate (although Simon K loved them!) but when we have worn out the 14,000 odd locos made we will want some more for sure!!  😆

[The son of Triangman]

Unless the moulds are still over in China then they will probably have been in the 9000 moulds that were destroyed.  It is doubtful that the moulds still exist, I can't see Hornby making any more, it would mean a load of new tooling, better control system as well and it's a premium product aimed at a niche market with those of deep pockets.  In a marketplace where people moan about paying £300 for a normal loco, the thought of paying £1000+ for a live steamer is going to be even less appealing.  Plus with people loosing their jobs due to ongoing Brexit uncertainty makes the market for such a product less attractive.  Hornby OO Live steam as we know is a dead technology.  There will always be those with deep pockets who can afford such luxuries of course, but they won't be mainstream products and that was live steams failing, after good inital sales mainly to dust collectors as investments, the sales dropped off.  Sales picked up at the end when sellers were heavily discounting and clearing the product but then it always does as everyone loves a bargain or something for nothing. 

 

Then there's spares issues, there's nowhere to get spares, some people stock odd bits, but there's only one place to get parts now.  That's fine if you are a member but not everyone wants the expense of joining a club just to fix a model. No offence to the club intended.

[Go_West]

I see your concerns and as time goes on even the spares will go up in price as they become scarce that will lead to engines being broken down for bits in an effort to keep others running.

as for the club I didn't think there was a charge to joint and apart from the bits for these engines they would have help and information for those in trouble with there engines and offer help.

ken

[walkingthedog]

At the Basingstoke show a few weeks ago one trader was selling the Mallard Live Steam set unused and never removed from its box for £475. I’ve seen sets for sale like this quite often. 

[96RAF]

Plenty LS on fleabay ranging from £129 bid for a Rocket with 00 LS sets listed from £300 (Malards) to £2000 (Papyrus), some new, some used. Maybe the LS entrepreneur bubble has burst.

[The son of Triangman]

I agree. I think the market is in recession so the OO live steam bubble has burst, I have seen two unused sets in the sub £400 price range recently. Prices were getting crazy until recently with sets going for £1k upwards. All good news for people wanting to get into OO live steam.  The same thing happened with wrenn mania a few years back, it reached it's peak and then the investor bubble burst and prices have tumbled.

[Theonlyguy withawatch]

I have a dream....... that here in Beijing, when retirement strikes, I could travel down to wherever it was in Guangzhou Province the Hornby Live Steam critters were made, come back up here with loads of parts, and MAKE SOME MORE! Oh well.......  

[Go_West]

That would be great and no doubt others would support you all the way but then it's a very long list of parts and assuming you have the skill to build said engines a lot of work for very little reward as there are still plenty out there for sale.

good luck

[Phil_Spiegel.]

I was extremely grateful that Hornby did not release a Merchant Navy or WestCountry / BoB in the live steam range, as my resistance would have crumbled. ( there is space in a spam can).

As for it's original launch time .... Almost parallelling a late move into DCC this will have sp!it marketing and perception budgets.   .... What was 'needed' was a dcc-compatible version  (which with improved lithium battery technology  would now be possible ( and I include WiFi/Bluetooth control in that, as both can be used at the same time as other stock running from track power and control DCC )

A drawback on the released system was the 60W needed by the laws of physics ( 5 amps @ 12V )  running through track which may have only been cabled for barely 1 Amp. ... Ànd unless a live steamer is fitted with a suitable slow_mo mechanism such as that From añ Australian company ( for g scale), is better suited to a continuous run than a shunting puzzle ... Especially in the smaller gauges such as 00.  ( I had the privilage  of shunting with r/c live steam on Hambleden Valley at yesterday's Larger Scales Show in Reading yesterday )

When I was a school pupil, I drew a design of electrically heated live steam for 00 with the heater wrapped around the boiler ....not a good example of energy efficient design. Even ignoring any thoughts of working pistons..

The demo at Ilfracombe Model Railway Show a few years ago (available on You Tube ) was the best íLustration I have seen of all aspects of the hormby OK live steam system!..

The power consumption and heat given off were clearly demonstrated with a rolling road with ammeter and volt meter display, and a range of adapted models shows what could be produced by an owner with engineering skil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

[The son of Triangman]

The concept was good, the different voltage was a problem, as was cost and people's inexperience of using live steam.  A lot of people expected it to just drive straight from the box like their electric powered models, and to be as controllable from day one, this of course wasn't the case and it was an eliteist/premium price product.  I think if live steam was to return to the range in OO it would need some redesign work to make it more amature friendly and modernisation for the digital age and needs to hit a more affordable price point.  New moulds might be needed as if they were back in the UK and stored at Margate after production they may well have been scrapped in the great "family silver throwout" when 9000 historic and modern moulds were sent for scrap under the previous management.  For now the concept sleeps, maybe not totally dead, but most definately in a very deep sleep as a Hornby production item.

[Go_West]

LIVE STEAM is what it is and act and runs as a steam engine would how many times have I seen a full size engine starting off with the driver opening the regulator and nothing happening ?  Like the tv program on a while back riding on the foot plate of the Flying Scotsman the driver then opened the regulator and nothing happened he tried different thing playing with the valve settings and in the end had to go backwards first then try going forwards which worked in his case but happens from time to time 

if the full size engine had a the steam parts removed and an electric motor fitted when the driver then opened the power lever the engine would have moved off ok.

steam is like that and is hard to control some time on full size engine my grandson aged 12 years has a 5 foot circuit in his bedroom and runs some 4 Hornby live steam he has control and drives them very well with no problems no doubt others find them not as bad as people say they are it might take more skill to operate these engines but thats the fun you never know what will happen the first time you open the regulator I have electric trains and run them on the same track as the LS and operate on zero1 this is totally predictable you punch in the engines code number and select the direction push the speed knob and off it goes you can clean the car dig the garden and it's still going when you come in to see it steam you can not do this it needs to be driven all the time as things change with heat water and track. Compared to other live steam engines the price looks ok so you never know one day it might return and shock you all?

ken

[Muzza]

Glad to see that your grandson is enjoying running the LS.Start them young...........

Handy having a Grandad who knows what he is doing.

[The son of Triangman]

/media/tinymce_upload/9fcfaa52d60d05ad28572eb43422ef4e.jpgI know a bit about live steam.

[walkingthedog]

Your overalls are shinier than the loco  😆

[Go_West]

l think it must be oil fired.