0-6-0 locos stalling on points

[annagr]

I run a DCC layout and am plagued with the small locos (0-6-0s) stalling on the points. I am currently using the Select 1 amp controller and was wondering if the 4 amp Elite would help given that it supplies more power.  I have done all the usual - checked the track joiners are tight, cleaned the track and wheels, oiled the locos etc. So this is the only thing I can think of left to do. Or is this someting I have to live with? Thoughts please.

[jane1707819582]

Buying the elite won't help, 0-6-0 loco's rock slightly going over points .

you can file the plastic frog a little.

Convert to electrofrog points .

The way I have gone is to convert my 0-6-0 stock to stay alive 

[Rog RJ]

It's very common for small locos to stall on points due to the plastic frog of the points.  Sometimes, apparently, adding an extra track pin close to the fog can help by keeping the point as flat as possible.  You need to drill a small hole in a sleeper before you can add an extra track pin.

[Chrissaf]

Loco motors just draw as much current as they need. If a motor only draws 200mA then that is all it will draw, whether the supply is 1 amp or 100 amp. So as others have said, the Elite 4 amp supply will make very little difference. The reason the loco stalls on the point is not because it can't get enough electrical current. It stalls because the current supply is cut off altogether.

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The issue is with the Hornby insulfrog points....they are notorious for stalling short wheel base locos such as 0-6-0s and 0-4-0s. Some members have had good results from adding an additional fixing pin (pilot hole needs drilling) into the centre of the point as close to the plastic frog area as you can get (ROG's suggestion above). The more drastic solution is to replace the points with PECO ST ones that use the same geometry as Hornby as they have smaller physical plastic frogs, or PECO SL-E ones that do not conform to Hornby geometry but have 'Electrofrogs'. The SL-E ones are more onerous to fit because the different geometry would need more extensive layout surgery.

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Your easiest option, since your layout is DCC (this can't be done on a DC Analogue loco) is to fit a decoder with a 'stay alive'.....sometimes also termed a 'keep alive'. There are many posts on here relating to retrospectively fitting 'stay alives' to 0-4-0 & 0-6-0 locos to resolve the same issue you are posting about. None of the Hornby branded decoders have 'factory' stay alive options, but 'stay alives' can be fitted to Hornby decoders if you have the necessary very fine soldering skills. If you don't have these skills, then sourcing a decoder with a factory fitted plug-in 'stay alive' is probably your better option.

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The bigger the 'stay alive' capacitance, the further the loco will travel when track power is broken. If you fit a decoder with a very large 'stay alive' then your knock on issue is that you ideally need to disable 'DC Operation' in CV29. This you cannot do with your Hornby Select controller unless you get the Select firmware upgraded to version 1.6 or you still go ahead and source an Elite controller replacement for your Select. If you don't disable 'DC Operation' then you may see the loco shoot off when the track power is turned off, until such time as the 'stay alive' power reserve is exhausted. This could potentially be a 'foot' of loco travel or sometimes more.

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Note that the Select could then be connected to a new replacement Elite as a 'walkabout' controller. Thus you would then have three controller throttles to play with instead of one. So the previous investment in the Select is not wasted.

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[annagr]

I exchanged some of the Hornby points for Peco ST but it made no real difference. I do not have the skills for fine soldering and am disappointed that Hornby do not develop the track, points and other supporting items to accomodate DCC better and that they have not addressed the stalling points issues. I am sure many find it frustrating and I certainly did not expect so many 'over-sights' by a company that has been around as long as Hornby. In New Zealand we pay a lot for these parts and if they don't work properly because of poor design it is very off putting for a beginner like me. I will try the extra track pins and see if that helps. But I can't see why one has to make so many modifications to a system to get it to work properly.

Regarding electrofrog points - I read they did not work for DCC without some modification. Is this true?

[96RAF]

The stalling problem is not a DCC thing, it can also happen to a slow moving analogue shortie loco.

There is a discussion already in place about the modification of live frog points.

[Chrissaf]

Regarding electrofrog points - I read they did not work for DCC without some modification. Is this true?

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Yes and No.....the normal left and right points will work 'out of the box' on DCC without modification. But to get the very best reliable operation for 0-4-0 & 0-6-0 locos running at slow speeds over an Electrofrog point and at the same time eliminate the risk of 'short circuits' then the isolated and switched frog power PECO documented modification is highly recommended. The only other thing that Electrofrog points need, are additional track power feeds to power the dead sections of track that the Electrofog points can potentially create (subject to the exact layout design detail) due to the need to fit Insulated Rail Joiners to the frog rails where the points are being used as part of the main loops. PECO points do not use Hornby's DCC point clip system.

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The only additional thing you need to perform the PECO Electrofrog modification is a point motor that has a frog power change-over switch capability. This can either be by using a point motor that has the switch integral to it. Or a point motor that can have the switch added to it. If your point motors are of the Solenoid type and are already in place and working without any inbuilt frog switching capability, then one very easy way to convert them to frog power switching is to add the GaugeMaster GM500D latching relay to them. The GM500D uses the same three wires that currently operate the Solenoid motor and is wired directly in parallel with it. The change-over contacts on the GM500D then wire to the DCC track supply and the frog to provide the frog power switching function.

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GM500D wiring diagram.

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The basic PECO Electrofrog point modification itself, just involves cutting two wire straps on the point and attaching the already provided frog wire to the switch. A more enhanced modification involves soldering two additional wire straps between the fixed and moving switch rails. Again, PECO have thoughtfully provided gaps in the plastic webbing underneath the point to facilitate this. Basic (not fine) soldering skills required, but a thin tipped (about 2 or 3mm diameter) low wattage (15W) soldering iron is best.

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The PECO provided frog wire (factory attached to the frog) is bare wire and ideally needs an insulating sleeve put on it (this could be heat shrink sleeving). It may also be an easier installation if the wire is also extended with normal PVC insulated wire (to give a bit more slack) to more easily aid the termination of the wire on the point frog switch.

[Going Spare]

You say you have cleaned the wheels: did this include the backs of the wheels as well as the treads?  The backs of the wheels and the pick-ups need to be clean and the pick-ups need to be making good contact with the metal rim of the wheels at all times (allowing for lateral and vertical movement of the wheels) so that the motor is getting a good electrical feed from at least four if not all six wheels to minimise the effect of loss of feed from a wheel when not in contact with metal rail.

GS

[EnGee]

Quote from Chrisaf:-

 

Your easiest option, since your layout is DCC (this can't be done on a DC Analogue loco) is to fit a decoder with a 'stay alive'.....sometimes also termed a 'keep alive'. There are many posts on here relating to retrospectively fitting 'stay alives' to 0-4-0 & 0-6-0 locos to resolve the same issue you are posting about. None of the Hornby branded decoders have 'factory' stay alive options, but 'stay alives' can be fitted to Hornby decoders if you have the necessary very fine soldering skills. If you don't have these skills, then sourcing a decoder with a factory fitted plug-in 'stay alive' is probably your better option.

End quote.

 

Yes, this 100%. Don't waste your time on the points, just get the locos converted. I have converted both my smaller trains from the Mixed Freight set and the difference is amazing and worth every penny!

 

OK, so it didn't cost me anything and I don't know how you put a cost on frustration, but even if you have to buy a decoder with special 'stay alive' wires and a few components, the difference is still worth every penny!

[Flashbang]

A lot of stalling of 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 locos on Insulated frog points, such as all Hornby and Peco Setrack etc is often due to a very slight hump or dip in the point along its length.   Best is to use (with the track power off) a 6" or 12" steel rule on its edge and placed along the rail top of the point, If daylight can be seen at one or both ends the the point is not laying flat. Often to resolve this a small hole drilled in the sleeper just before the frog and a track pin carefully driven is will overcome the problem.   Or the reverse can be a dip is noted around the frog area in which case the point needs lifting a little in the frog area with the aid of some packing - thin postcard etc can be used. But of course a dead flat baseboard is a necessity too.

Obviously, the above is of little consequence if the rails are not scrupulously clean and the moving points switch rail inside face and its mating fixed stock rail face are not clean too on each side. - Use a fibre pencil for this area.  Equally, all wheel rims need to be clean and the rear of wheels too plus the rear of wheel wipers need to be checked that they are all making continual contact onto the rear of the wheel even when the wheel and its axle move slightly side ways across the loco.

[walkingthedog]

I use the track pin method and everything crosses my points, even the 0-4-0 Peckett.

[ChrisBWC]

I've been using the track pin method but don't have a drill bit thin enough.  I'm guessing I'd need a hand drill but where could I get a drill bit small enough?  Is there another tool I could use to put a hole through the sleeper?

[96RAF]

1 mm drill and a pin vice is preferred.

You could use a hot dental pick to melt a hole in the sleepr, or use a screw and flat washer that will bridge the gap between two sleepers.

[Chrissaf]

Search on ebay for the term "micro drills" then thousands to choose from. You then ideally need a 'pin vice' to use with the drill bit, again search ebay using the term 'pin vice'. Some of the ebay listings for 'micro drills' include a 'pin vice' bundled in with the listing.

[ChrisBWC]

Thanks RAF and Chris!

[Andy01]

I have had this problem and one suggestion was running faster over the points which looked silly when running a shunter beside a northern belle :-). Problem solved. The shunter is too light and the plastic frog may be a bit high. 

1) carefully trim the plastic frog to be level with the track 

2) Set the points to turn off then look straight down the curved track ( Watch your eye ) if the frog is not flush with the rail it needs trimming. 3) I got a roll of fishing lead and made some weights to fit into the shunter and all seems OK

Did this with 0-6-0 steam and that works OK as well. Bit of work but I don't know why Hornsby can't get the points casting right in the first place. I have been told that the problem has started since Hornsby started making the rails in China. 

[96RAF]

HornSby ??

I have a Bachmann Jinty that would bottom out on points. The moulded spring hangers were too close to ground so I hacked a bit off with a file to increase ground clearance.

[ColinB]

That is the very reason why people use electrofrog points. Stay alive certainly makes it better and less of an issue.

[96RAF]

That is treating the symptoms not curing the disease Colin.

[ColinB]

In that case why don't you buy some of that PCB repair paint if they still sell it and paint the relevant part of the frog. That originally is why Hornby 0-6-0 locos had one axle sprung, for that very reason. On the new Hornby 0-6-0 locos they removed it, I don't know whether it was a "cost save" or it gave improved traction. I notice Dapol on their new Mogul have come to the same conclusion, as their centre axle is sprung. As I say there are two ways of curing it.

[Flashbang]

As far as I can see there is one thing that hasn't been stated or asked!

A) Is the loco actually stalling - Power remains constantly On but loco stops.

Or

B) Is the loco shorting as it passes over the points frog area? Thereby cutting off rail power and the DCC console shows a momentary short circuit. ?

 

Both need different approaches and cures.

[Ian-372723]

This is probably a no-no for perfectionists, but I have found installing a pick-up in the coach/wagon next to the loco overcomes the problem. Apologies if you think I have stated the obvious!

[96RAF]

I run a DCC layout and am plagued with the small locos (0-6-0s) stalling on the points. I am currently using the Select 1 amp controller and was wondering if the 4 amp Elite would help given that it supplies more power. I have done all the usual - checked the track joiners are tight, cleaned the track and wheels, oiled the locos etc. So this is the only thing I can think of left to do. Or is this someting I have to live with? Thoughts please.

 

 

The problem is not power, the motor only uses what throttle you give it. The problem is the short wheelbase does not bridge the plastic frog thus cutting the power source.

As stated more pickups needed outside the dead plastic area.

[P-Henny]

96RAF, have you not noticed that you have quote replied to a 3 & 3/4 year old post resurrected by Ian.

[ColinB]

The solution I have found is installing a decent "stay alive". I found some "stay alives" you couldn't read back values in programming mode but I found if you buy a more expensive one, then this is not an issue. The issue I found even with electrofrog points, most points are a bit uneven so the 0-6-0 doesn't always pickup power properly. The bigger issue is finding room to fit it all.