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[gowest1707822480]

Looking on here it seems dead does any one have something to share with us live steamers Steam Lives Matter.

[gowest1707822480]

I was hoping someone might have items on live steam to keep this forum going as we seem to be slipping down the list of interest.

so any ideas on breathing life into live steam?

maybe your experience in driving and running these little marvels or your tips on servicing cleaning and driving.

i think one of the problems around the corner will be spare parts as Hornby run out of parts or off load all there parts to what ever so bringing an end to live steam as far as they are concerned and will then concentrate on the standard electric type models.

lets here what you think? Ken

[96RAF]

If you were rethinking it from the ground up Ken, what would be your key design bullet points, e.g. power, control, etc.

I agree spare parts will be a critical factor in keeping current models alive and running.

My thoughts:

1. Constant power to the track, say 24v.
2. Thermostatic control of boiler heating and super-heater if still required.
3. Wireless control, so the track condition doesn’t come into the equation to distort the control signal.
4. Manual controller or App based control using tablet or phone.
5. Metal bodies, which would be strong, able to be handled with gloved hands, possibly 3-D printed to ensure thin walls but with decent detail.
6. Adequate spares and repairs support as part of the business plan.
7. No need for sound as it makes its own.

[Bulver]

Hi to all,

have been away from the forum for a while (protracted house move etc) but glad to see some familiar names.

Have just bought 'Mallard' live steam set, and and realise that this is much more than track laying and dcc control, more like the real thing. I was amazed at the weight of the package, the poor delivery lady put it down and ran!! Anyway, as a newbie on this, wanted to ask Ken and Rob about the cleaning of the underside of the loco, When I took the loco out of the package, noticed there were oil marks on the packaging. The underside is shiny with oil, so can I use IPA to clean this off - that's before I even start laying track and connecting the very impressive control system! Any advice would be gratefully received

Many thanks

Rod

[Bulver]

Sorry chaps, should have looked further down the forum page - whoops. . So, IPA and/or Methylated spirit are both effective. Very useful

Rod

[gowest1707822480]

Hi BU

there are times when an engine has covered a few miles an overhaul is a good idea and also if you have bought a second hand model then checking it over from front to back is required

IPA is a good cleaner or WD 40 which I think if used correctly is the best as it has a petroleum base and will soften old steam oil which on an engine not run for a few months or years tends to make the running gear difficult to turn and should never be forced as damage to the engine can happen.

try to estabish how good the verious parts are like the motor gear assembly wiring the red green light switch along with oil tank sealing washer

In many cases if the old oil has made the engine stiff its best to fill the tender with water and attempt at run on wooden blocks keeping the wheels off the ground or a rolling road if you have one leave the engine for a good 10 minutes to heat up properly the open the regulator and try turning the wheels gently and see if it runs once freed up let it cool down and then proceed to clean the chassis it's a good idea to wear rubber glove as most cleaners can damage the skin or are carsonagenic the body I clean with washing up liquid and a tooth brush then some warm water to rinse off the soap.

then tender needs less work WD 40 on the 6 main axle boxes is best as it's a cleaner and lubricant and as the power for the complete engine comes from here they must be clean and it is possible for these axle boxes to seize up and drag the tender round thereby putting flats on the wheels.

This is basic maintenance and I have not gone into more detail here but the parts covered should put an engine back into good running order. Maybe I could cover this later in more detail

Back to Rob and his ideas all very good ones using the voltage to 24 will reduce the current or maybe go to 30 volts ?

DCC is a thing people keep banging on about along with radio control I have built 3 radio control systems and are here on this forum and YouTube somewhere no doubt with out pictures.

Rob is the boy for DCC. I'm not up to speed on that type of system but it is worth trying just to see if there is any advantage

I will come back to this in a day or 2 maybe Rob could add his knowledge to this problem

it is possible to fit a radio receiver in the engine as I think they are getting smaller and small er now and if the rail joints were beefed up and many more jumper cables fitted plus more amps from a new power unit 2 or 3 engines might be able to run on the same track?

ken

[96RAF]

Ken is your live steam man, but I do know a little bit about DCC and I like dreaming up future scenarios.

Writing up a How To Service a Live Steam Loco sounds like a great idea Ken which could then be pegged at the top of this section as a sticky.

WD-40 now do a cleaner which seems to be as good as IPA, but note this is not the regular WD-40, which will gunge up as the expectorant flashes off and the lubricant congeals over time.

Still dreaming in technicolour so how about this for a future live steam system:

1. Taking account of Ken’s recommendation the track voltage is jacked up to whatever potential is best for the most efficiency to boil the kettle and run additional locos.
2. The track voltage is only there to keep the decoder alive and power the heavy bits, hence can be straight DC.
3. DCC decoder is made wireless, i.e. it takes its commands over the air, which gets rid of any signal corruption from a dirty track. Use of DCC control allows running of multiple locos subject to finite track current loading.
4. Decoder operating voltage is stepped down from the track voltage, either on-board or via the loco main pcb, which also has the other bits required to operate the regulator, etc. E.g. solid state relays, etc.
5. Best use is made of modern electronics.
6. Control system is by way of an App on your phone or tablet or can be a wireless enabled manual controller for those who prefer proper hands on controls.
7. RC is a possibility as running different frequencies allows multiple locos on track. Again the loco takes its power from the track eliminating need for on-board batteries.

[Bulver]

Thank you Ken, and to Rob also. I have copied and pasted Ken's recommendations. As Rob suggests, this could be the basis for a 'How To Service a Live Steam Loco' sticky, Ken is full of knowledge on the live steam range. Always enjoyed his videos showing the conversions he has done.

Will let you know how things progress

Once again, thanks

Rod

[gowest1707822480]

Well spent some pennies on two systems a DCC board and a radio control unit

I think the DCC unit might have be a none runner as said my knowledge of this type of control is limited the picture here is the DCC unit which is claimed will run over 100 engines but with only a 1 amp out put would not be right? I don't think that hanging a string of fet's on the out put to bring the amps up will work for we need something like 20 amps to run more than one engine

will run the disc and see what's on it

the radio might be a little more straight forward but will need the feed back pot in the servo linked to the out put in same way for digital control it must still work if the pot is pre set and the out put that would have connected to the servo motor changed to being wired straight to the Hornby motor but I here you say why not just use the servo and remove the Hornby unit this will be difficult to achieve as the servo needs to turn 180degrs for forward and reverse much head scratching

any ides welcome and if rob wants the DCC in more detail I'll try to set it up and just run a standard electric engine apparently this pub will work with the Hornby decoder?

for me personal I still think the basic live steam is ok maybe the delay could have been shorter or not used at all but then that's just my preference

The DCC pcb has an over load LED a power in and a track out plus a link to a pic and 6 external connection but that's all I can say at this time.

[Bulver]

Good morning all,

thanks again to Ken & Rob for the much appreciated advice. A couple of questions ....how is the connector between loco and tender linked? I have the draw-bar flapping around loosely at present. I assume that it would have had a pin or similar joining the 2 components, but there is nothing in the packaging that might have dropped off.

Also, you mentioned a new variant of WD-40, I haven't much experience with these, and note there are a couple of different types available. Is one more suited to our purposes?

Any help appreciated

Rod

[96RAF]

That looks like a murton pike systems board Ken. The brief description on his website says that it is a two channel DCC controller i.e. controls two locos at once. There is no downloadable manual on site so it must all be on the CD along with the operator interface software package. You of course need a loco with a DCC decoder to make use of it.

[gowest1707822480]

Hi Bulver

Above is the connection for the draw bar between the tender and engine this is a special screw with a collar machined under the head of the screw which when tight between the 2 draw bar components still allows a flexible connection up and down left and right to some degree. I might have one if Mr Hornby old John can't help or can be made if you get stuck.

As for WD40 I just use the standard type which will break down very thick and old steam oil I was trying to find my oiling device but can't find it I mention this because if you look on the bottom of a live steam engine the 4 main oiling points have very small oiling holes which are impossible to lubricant with most types of oiling devices but there is one you can buy on that auction websight that has a very small needle that will go into the oiling holes easily to make sure oiling of the main axles is complete and I suggest that when it runs out to fill it with GTX engine oil this is a good sticky oil that remains a good lubricant at all temperatures.

I will look for my oiling unit and post a picture of what I mean if I find it.

Rob as for the DCC pcb looks like I bought a pig in a poke as it claim to be able to run over 100 engines but only has a 1 amp output? Plus it looks like it works with software to run on a laptop or pc I thought with some mods I might get it to work with Live Steam but think it will involve too much work and who wants to walk round with a pc under your arm so a none starter in think

Rob might look agaan at my Ardreno which could offer an alternative

The radio control will be more straight forward I think as will pushing the volts up to 30v

Its time with all these ideas that I need right now with other things going on at the same time might take a while.

[96RAF]

The DCC board you have Ken is a bit like an eLink and Railmaster in that the software can store 100 locos for recall to operations, but only 2 can be under live control at any one time. All the board does is silently convert the software commands to DCC commands and passes them to the track. The decoder in each loco then responds to commands sent to its own address and ignores all other commands except the broadcast All Stop command.

Without the software the board is useless and vice-versa.

[gowest1707822480]

Looked at the software and decided no I'm still getting my head round the forum pages you would be the best chap for this one Rob.

i was told it will work with the Hornby decoder

[96RAF]

It is but a simple DCC controller Ken and may be of use to a stand alone track for someone.

I am awash with controllers of all shapes and sizes and thus without a use for it.

[gowest1707822480]

Rob

I'll loose it in my workshop it's like the Bermuda Triangle in there things just disappeare

waiting for a servo might be in the post to day so some tests on yet another radio control system but this time one that will operate on 24 or 30 volt so that more engine will run on one track?

[Bulver]

Thanks for the info on the link, Ken, and apologies for not responding sooner.

I will see if the Hornby spares dept. has one. If no luck there, then I will report back.

Thanks also for the advice re. WD40, nice to know it's not all bad news with that product!.

Look forward to seeing the images of the oiling unit you describe. I never thought I would see a recommendation for Castrol GTX in relation to a OO gauge loco, but sounds as though it is just the right viscosity for this particular range of locos. A trip to Halfords seems to be in order.

Rod

[gowest1707822480]

Servicing your Steam Engine Page1

As promised I hope to cover some of the major points in servicing and looking after your Hornby Live Steam Engine.

The information that I will put here is what I think and what I have found is best for my own live steam engines, some may disagree or have better ideas to keep LS in tip top condition and are welcome to share there ideas here with us only by collecting the findings of others can we build a positive plan on the best way to keep our engines in good order and long lasting.

If I break down the components that go to make a live steam engine which we are mainly concerned with you might get a better idea as to what the different parts look like and how they interact with each other so lets start with basic Lubrication.

First is that we must add steam oil to the oil tank before a run and the picture here shows the oil being added I add bout .5mL adding more will not damage the engine but may lead to a messy start as the engine moves off with oil coming up the chimney and running down the smoke box.

The oiling of the valve system and pistons and cylinders is the same on most engines some engines have the oil directly injected into the valve chest and cylinders by an oil pump mounted in an oil tank like here in this picture of a traction engine.

The oil tank is the red box inside is the oil pump the oil under pressure from the pump goes out up the copper pipe into a none return valve then into the valve chest from there to the cylinder then up the chimney.

Our little Hornby engines do the same thing but are more of a displacement type of system using the steam pressure to push the oil in the case of the A3 through an adjustable valve into the main steam way from there to the valve chest then to the cylinders.

 The used oil once passed through the cylinders ends up going up the chimney so the engine is running on clean oil all the time unlike a car engine that keeps pumping round the same old oil getting blacker and blacker. 

The oil I use is Steam Compounded 460 grade and covers superheated and saturated types of steam engine I never use this for oiling other parts of the engine as steam oils becomes sticky when cold and dirt and fluff sticks to the oil on the moving parts.

I also think when you have stopped running your engine be it an A4 or A3 as the steam pressure in the tender tank collapses that you carefully unscrew the tender water filler screw and allow what steam is left to escape and then to cool right down you can put the screw back but do not tighten it this way no vacuum will build up in the tender tank as the steam condenses. I say this because I found that a vacuum in the tender tank can pull any steam oil left in the oil tank into the supper heater a start to gum up the unit leading to poor steaming.

You can see from the one that I took apart the black carbon and shiny oil build up on the supper heater centre section and the main body was just as bad The unit did not come apart very easily it took a bit of pulling. In the past I just boiled them out with acid but this time I decided to see why it was blocking up.

[gowest1707822480]

Page2

Having dealt with the internal oiling of the engines moving parts we can move onto the external moving parts just like the driver above with his oil can going all over the moving parts in the motion before a run or after a run as he went round he would put the back of his hand on crank rod bearings to see how hot they were.

To pass out as a driver you were tested on all the parts of a steam engine and what each part did miss out or not know the part being questioned on would mean you just failed and you carried on as a fireman.

First lets look in some detail at the main driving axles which there are 3 the front and rear axles are the same its only the middle axle that is different this is because it contains the drive gear for the steam valve timing.

To show you a little clearer I dug out this A3 chassis from my spares box it is in quite good condition the axle bearings are in good order and the silver plating on the wheel tyres are hardly worn which would show it never did a lot of running at some time in its life.

Hornbys drawing shows in detail the 3 axles and bearings and there assembly look closely at the middle axle with its longer bearing and odd shaped axle.

The picture shows the same breakdown of parts.

I have drawn the middle axle below to show how it looks in the engines chassis but with the brake gear removed and you can see any oil added here will fill up the cavity around the axle and give good lubrication to both bearing journals for some considerable time.

The gear assembly that fits in the centre of the chassis and meshes with the middle axle gear also has the same type of design and will therefore holds oil that will lubricate the 2 small bearings each end in this assembly nicely.

[96RAF]

First class information for a live steam user to understand the workings of their models Ken.

I don’t have live steam, but I appreciate the amount of work you put into these reports for those who do have these amazing models.

[gowest1707822480]

RAF 96 I hope it comes across ok and makes sense as you will no doubt know when explaining about an aircraft air frame or engine part its best to take the view that a report needs to cover every item clearly and in detail taking on board that the person that will read it might have a limited knowledge

[Bulver]

Ken, you are a veritable mine of information regarding these little marvels, thanks for the latest detail. I haven't yet had the chance to test the loco, or even remove the body to carry out the schedule of maintenance you wrote up some weeks ago. (I have in fact printed it out to guide me along!) I haven't tried for the screw either, so may have to beg your assistance in this regard. Anyway, thanks once again

Rod

[gowest1707822480]

Bulver

One screw ready to send no charge

ken

[gowest1707822480]

This is the oiling pen I use and its fine needle will fit into the oiling holes in the under side of the chassis and can be refilled with GTX when it runs out a good all round oil for these small engines.

[96RAF]

If you need me as a go between Bulver I have Kens email address, send me yours and I will forward it to Ken.

You can reach me via my web site page linked to in my signature, contacts page.