Turning on F28 AFC for HM7000 decoders

[Britannia Builder]

I have fitted 8-TXS sound decoders to two of my locos, and I like to use the AFC function on F28 in order to turn the sound on and off and get automatic horn/whistle when moving off, brake noise when stopping, and random whistles etc while running.

However, having set up a Railmaster button for F28 with the caption 'Sound AFC on/off' I find that I have to press the button twice in order to turn on the function and get the sound on; thereafter it responds to each button press, but then the green of the on button is always out of sync with the decoder.

Any ideas why this might be?

Regards, John

[96RAF]

RM has a history of F-keys getting out of synch, especially if you use both RM and a manual DCC controller to operate them.

RM actually sends a spot sound command twice, once to turn the function on and again to turn it off. This resets the F-key similar to if you were operating it manually. The on/off command is the same command sent again, there is no proper function on, function off, it is simply function, function.

You can see this in programs if a command is skipped and light or horns turn on when they should be off and vice-versa.

[P-Henny]

In Railmaster each function button has a Macro associated with it. To see the Macro click the F28 function button in the locomotive settings screen.

Have a look at the macro (if one is set) as it may give a clue to what might be happening. For background reading regarding Macros, review the RM manual from page 41.

It may not be a Macro issue as you say it is only the first press that doesn't work and the same Macro would also be actioned for each subsequent press of the F28 button.

I see that you say your F28 button label has "on/off" written on it? Any function that needs to function as a toggle i.e press once for "on" and then press again for "off" needs the "on/off" text (without the "" quotation marks). If the F28 function needs to toggle using the "on/off" text, the associated Macro (if there is one) should ideally not have F28 listed in it twice.

There is a limit on the number of characters that can be written on a function button. You say your button is labelled "Sound AFC on/off", just purely as a diagnostic test, try shortening it to "AFC on/off", to see if that makes a difference (unlikely but just worth trying).

[Britannia Builder]

Thanks - I've tried shortening the button caption to 'AFC on/off', but it made no difference. There's no macro - in fact macros don't seem to be allowed on on/off buttons.

Other on/off buttons such as F1 Sound and Coal Shoveling work correctly, and the F28 button is very consistently wrong - it takes two presses for each HM7000 loco on the first use at the start of a session, then works on each subsequent press. Not a major issue, but I suspect there's something wrong with the decoder's handling of F28 on DCC.

Regards, John

[96RAF]

More likely to be RMs handling of F28 which has a complex set of supporting CVs that set up the sounds in use for either static or mobile scenarios.

See decoder manual

[P-Henny]

There's no macro - in fact macros don't seem to be allowed on on/off buttons.

 

 

That actually makes sense, the "on/off" obviously negates the need for a Macro as well, else the "on/off" and Macro could conflict.

Again, just something to try.

Edit the button to remove the "on/off" label. This should then allow a Macro to show. Then edit the Macro so that it is completely blank (if it will accept it). If accepted, this in theory should force F28 to just send a single F28 command, just like the "on/off" label but maybe in a different way.

Again, I doubt it will make any difference but worth a try. I suspect the issue lies in the way that the TXS decoder handles F28.

If you have an Elite, what happens if you send F28 from the Elite instead of RM.

[St1ngr4y]

@Brittania Builder

Hi John,

Have you tried turning on “normal” sound first using F1, then AFC sound with F28 on top of that?

Ray

[Britannia Builder]

Rob - surely Railmaster just sends the F28 message to the decoder without understanding what it means, and the decoder sorts out all the CVs etc?

Paul - I think setting a macro to blank is how you delete it, although perhaps a simple Pause macro could be tried. I have an elink rather than elite. The HM DCC app works correctly with a single press of F28, but I'm aiming to operate everything from Railmaster.

Ray - F1 does reliably turn the sound on with a single press, but I can't remember if F28 then works with one press. However I was trying to achieve a single press of a single button!

I really only raised this issue to draw attention to what may possibly be a minor bug in the TXS decoder - I'm not too bothered about finding a workaround, but many thanks for the suggestions. In the meantime I'll keep pressing the button twice!

Regards, John

[96RAF]

F28 includes F1.

[Britannia Builder]

Yes, that's one of the attractions of F28 - I was able to remove F1 from the precious set of 6 buttons on the Railmaster small throttle display (I rarely use the large throttle pop-ups).

Regards, John

[St1ngr4y]

@Brittania Builder

Hi John,

I have been playing around with Function 28 on Railmaster, and I can confirm that there is a problem which I can reproduce exactly as you describe. However, in my opinion, the fault lies in Railmaster, not the decoder. I have tried this out using a different piece of software and it works fine. I can guess at how the fault is happening, nut it would be very complicated to explain.

If you feel inclined, I would report it as a fault through the RM help system, but for now, I'm afraid you might have to put up with it.

Something to try, just to show how it is probably a RM fault.

Switch the sound off on the loco F1 button grey, F28 button green. Then go into the loco settings window, highlight your loco, then skip down to F28. At the right hand end of the F28 line there is a test button. Press it once so that the sound comes on. Now without pressing the button again, click the green tick to Save the settings then the X button to exit the settings window. Now try the F28 button on your small throttle.

Ray

[St1ngr4y]

I forgot to mention, that the operation of F28 reverts to what you are seeing now when RM is reloaded.

Ray

[Britannia Builder]

Hi Ray

I've tried pressing the F28 test button once in the loco setup screen at the start of a session and that does indeed seem to send the 'sacrificial' F28 to the decoder that has no apparent effect, and thereafter the F28 on/off works at the first press and stays in sync with the decoder for the rest of the session.

Regards, John

[St1ngr4y]

Hi John,

I have had my DCC monitor switched on watching the data being sent out to the decoder, and it confirms that if the F28 button is green (and the decoder is silent) , then the data indicates “off”. When the button is pressed, changing it to grey, and switching on the sound, the data indicates “on”. So it’s definitely a fault in RM, not the decoder.

Ray

[gilbo2]

Whilst researching my issue, I came across this thread and can confirm its findings are also applicable to the Elite.

For me, having to press the AFC on/off button twice in RailMaster would be ok, if the next stage worked, but it doesn't, ie, as soon as I press the RM locos Stop button, or request Shunt/Cruise etc, it must issue a F28 OFF, as the AFC function immediately switches off requiring a further 2 presses of the F28 button. From then on, it all works fine until you reboot or have a 2nd AFC loco and the whole process then starts again. RM really does seem messed up when it comes to F28 / speed buttons!

As a workaround, I've found that after a reboot, I just need to press Stop, then AFC twice, then everything works fine!

So then I thought I'd just write a simple program to replicate the latter sequence (Stop + AFC twice). This though is different again, you only need to issue AFC once, no double action needed and the button will also be green. However, even if I include a stop command in the program, as soon as you press the locos speed buttons manually, AFC always turns off again. I cannot find a work around to make the program work as I want, what a mess!

In summary, I feel Program control is working as it should, its the first operation of the manual speed buttons that mess up F28.

Any clues on all this?

Edit: I've scrubbed text I've now confirmed as not linked to the OP and will raise as a new thread.

[Britannia Builder]

I originally posted this problem back in April last year, and it's still there. I use eLink rather than Elite with RM. I haven't experienced the problem that gilbo2 describes, of stop or throttle controls turning off AFC.

I've got into the habit of turning on some other on/off function first when first using a loco during a running session (eg lights, or coal shovelling), and F28 then works correctly at the first press and the green button stays in synch with the action. If I forget to do this and the F28 green button does get out of sync, I can correct it by pressing a spot sound button and then quickly pressing F28 while RM is tied up with the sound (it ignores any other command for about 3 seconds while the sound is playing, which at least in my experience is a long-standing 'feature' of RM).

I'm struggling to understand how this can be purely a bug in RM, since all other on/off functions work correctly at the first press and RM doesn't understand the meaning of F28 and surely treats it the same as any other on/off function.

Regards, John

[96RAF]

Maybe because of the way F28 invokes other functions. Anyhow RM is due 2 updates very soon. One was supposed to be before xmas for locos, decoders, etc.The second soon after was supposed to be a major update with new features - thought to be Loco Detection - but we still await any updates as of this week.

[Britannia Builder]

I've now experimented a bit further and satisfied myself that this is indeed a bug in Railmaster, as Ray said in his post above after monitoring the DCC messages.

When F28 is used as the first function button press for a loco in an RM session, the F28 button turns green but AFC is not turned on in the decoder. If any other function, either spot or on/off, is used beforehand, F28 then works on its first press. Using the stop or throttle buttons beforehand didn't avoid the problem for me, contrary to what gilbo2 experienced with the Elite.

After getting F28 synchronised and then turning it off for all my 5 TXS locos, I then closed and restarted RM without turning off the eLink track power. The F28 problem then recurred for each loco, proving that it's the initial state of RM rather than the decoder that causes the problem.

It's a strange bug because RM knows nothing of the meaning of F28, but it looks as though RM is failing to initialise its internal state of F28 correctly before sending the DCC message, but using any other function button has the side effect of correctly initialising F28. This side effect is understandable because the DCC function messages send the on/off state of a whole contiguous group of functions, eg F20-F28, when any function button is pressed.

We'll have to wait and see whether this bug got reported and fixed for the next release. Anyway it's no big deal - just toot the horn before turning on F28!

Regards, John

[96RAF]

If you report it in as a bug then it will reinforce any (if any) previous reports.

[Britannia Builder]

I've now reported it as a bug.

Regards, John

[gilbo2]

Thank you @96RAF and @Britannia Builder for your replies to my message. After further research and testing today, I've now confirmed that my loco control with F28 problem is not related to this tread afterall. I'll raise that as a new thread as it could help others who had my issues.

Thanks for the tip to switch some other on/off function first, it works fine on my setup too. I've also got the program working to enable all my loco AFCs, quite simple in the end, an F28 request followed by a dummy (eg F22) from the same F group as recommended by @St1ngr4y many moons ago to help ensure function commands are not missed. The F28 function button correctly shows green too after the program.

I'll also raise this F28 as an issue. Edit: now sent, said successful but not had a confirmation email.

[Britannia Builder]

I've now noticed that F27 (Brake on/off) has the same problem. I only discovered this because I pressed it twice before F28 to avoid the F28 problem - I guess it would rarely be used as the first function in a normal running session.

It's particularly confusing because two presses of F27 leave the button grey but the brakes applied - it took some time to work out why the loco didn't respond to the throttle!

I'll report this to HRMS as well. I haven't tried F22-F26; F21 is the highest function that I know works correctly at the first press.

Regards, John

[96RAF]

This all seems to be tied into the RM interpretation of the Elite function selection.

Manually you have to select an Elite function on then off again. No problem with a toggle function, sound on/off, lights on/off, etc, but when using spot sounds, i.e. those that play out, then you have to manually deselect them to make each function ready for the next play, e.g. horns/whistles.

To achieve this RM sends each spot function command twice to reset it for next play (hence the reason for on/off in the RM function designation).

Elite has a unique button feature in that you can press on/off for a toggle function but if you hold the button it becomes a momentary switch and remains on as long as you hold it pressed.

To add confusion RM is good at getting the button state out of synch with the play state, e.g. function button is green, but function has been turned off.

[gilbo2]

I've now noticed that F27 (Brake on/off) has the same problem......

 

 

Same here, but not surprised wink. If I do run my program first as mentioned earlier, then all the functions work and display green as they should. It seems to take an initial function cycle as you also discovered to wake them up so they work as they should?!

BTW, did you ever get a confirmation email from HRMS to confirm receipt of your bug report, heard nothing from mine?

 

 

[Britannia Builder]

No, I haven't received the confirmation email either - I think it said that it would be sent within an hour when I submitted the bug report and it's been over a day now. Hopefully they've received it!

Regards, John

Edit: confirmation received 12 Jan pm