Random Function control problems

[gilbo2]

I'm using an Elite 1.45 (standard mode) with RailMaster 1.74.5

I have an issue where function commands are sometimes missed. E.g. I select F1 for cab lights, most times the cab lights will switch on or off as instructed but occasionally (maybe 1 in 20 or so), the lights fail to turn on or off. When this happens (ON request) the RM F1 button is green, but function itself stays off, pressing the button again and the cab lights turn ON for a fraction of a second and then turn OFF again, now matching RM, most odd. The opposite is true if the OFF command has been "missed".

I've tried this with different Functions, locos and decoders and they all have this random, occasional issue.

Loco control and point control (with double pulse) never fails, always just this oddity with functions.

When I use the eLink / RM instead, it does not have this issue and never misses a beat.

I've been through the .ini file, port settings, tried different things such as long pause times between on and off, but nothing improves the problem. It's as though the logic control in the Elite is not outputting the correct function signals 100% of the time?

Any suggestions please or is this normal with Elite + RM?

[P-Henny]

Since it works fine with the eLink and commands are only lost with the Elite. Then the first thing to check is the USB communication Baud rate used for the controller.

The eLink uses a Baud rate of 115,200 bit/s whereas the Elite uses 19,200 bit/s. See RM manual page 16 for details.

If RM System Settings is configured for 115,200 but the Elite is being used with RM then RM could be sending the commands too quickly for the Elite to react.

You need to check the allocated Baud rate in two locations. Firstly in the RM System Settings screen and also in Windows Device Manager for the RM USB driver. Ideally the Baud rates need to match, but previous evidence seems to indicate that it is the RM Baud rate setting that is more critical to match the controller being used.

No, your issue is not normal. My Elite functions correctly with RM. My Baud rate is 19,200.....

[gilbo2]

Thank you PH.

I've just checked the baud rates, my eLink was using 115200 and Elite 19200.

I've now changed it to 9600 for the Elite in RM and also under Windows Device Manager. Unfortunately its not made any improvements to Function reliability.

[P-Henny]

The 9,600 I originally quoted, was posted from memory. Once I checked the manual, I realised my memory was in error and I edited my reply accordingly. You must have seen my reply before I edited it.

It would seem your Baud rates were correct, at least within RM, but have you confirmed that the Elite Baud rate is matched in Device Manager.

When you operate a 'Function' are you doing it from the small or large throttle. I always use the large throttle for my loco control as I find it more reliable. Historically there have been reported issues of synchronisation issues between the small & large throttles.

[gilbo2]

Yes, I've now changed device manager to match.

[96RAF]

Skipped commands have been noted in RM (and reported to HRMS) when using the Elite for a long time now. The problem is easily replicated by pressing buttons on both the RM screen and the Elite

These as you say get the screen button indication and the functionality out of step. The problem is particularly irksome in a program when it is turning stuff on when it should be turning it off and if it misses a point or signal command and the whole train run goes awry.

The problem is RM sends 2 commands for a function that plays through, thus turns it on and then turns it off ready for next time, but a toggled function command is just sent once, but that command isn’t turn it on or off it is just action that function.

What it needs is for RM to send a definite function on or function off not simply operate function.

[P-Henny]

Please see my latest edit to my last reply. I tend to write a reply then spend time reviewing and adding to it. These edits can be missed if you come back to review the thread too quickly.

As 96RAF says above. Using Elite buttons in parallel with RM buttons will cause sychronisation issues even if the Elite Feedback parameter is set in the .ini file. I ONLY use the RM buttons and leave my Elite buttons alone during a session.

Just to reiterate, I don't observe lost or missed commands with my RM / Elite configuration. I don't try to operate sequential commands too quickly & close together.

[gilbo2]

@PH - I always use the large throttle screen, but the small one is no different in my experience. Also, I only touch RM, I leave the Elite buttons alone.

@96RAF - Thanks, so it would seem this is a known "issue" between Elite and RM which does not exist with eLink. Yes, my programs go wrong which was when I first became aware of this. Has anyone found a workaround that I could use within a program?

[P-Henny]

Maybe I don't see lost commands because I don't use any programs. My control is always fully hands on manual. Sorry I have been unable to offer a suitable resolution on this occasion.

[gilbo2]

@PH, I really appreciate your suggestions though, thank you.

[96RAF]

Stingray is the guy to respond to preference of eLinks as he uses two in attempt to get over the RM skipped commands.

He has however written his own version of RM which doesn’t have any of the above noted problems.

A typical program of his would select toggled Function 1 on, then select spot sound Function 2 on, pause a few seconds then turn Function 2 off, set speed and direction . . . and at end of the program stop the loco and turn Function 1 off.

It is thought the Elite to PC USB comms are definitely the problem but how to fix it if it is in the PC side where the bottleneck is. Maybe the Elite needs the equivalent of overclocking.

[gilbo2]

Is there a download link for St1ngr4y's version?

[P-Henny]

No.

St1ng4ay's software has recently been discussed in forum. See pages 3 & 4 of the "Is this the death of Railmaster" thread [posts raised by 96RAF].

Is This The Death Of RailMaster? :: Hornby Hobbies

In principle, Ray has a small user group of beta testers, but is yet to make a decision as to how he will progress in the future. I also read in a post somewhere else, that Ray's software is also being further enhanced through a collaboration with someone in Canada who is developing 'loco detection' hardware that will work with Ray's SW. In that post 96RAF stated [iIRC] that he is Beta testing the initial prototype kit. But I might have the detail wrong [Chinese Whispers coming into play].

EDIT: Found the page discussing the Canada 'Loco Detection' aspect.

The Russet Lines - a model railway project :: Hornby Hobbies

[96RAF]

If I can stay off the original topic a while to clarify the Chinese whispers aspect. . .

Loco detection capability is already built into Ray's TGG as it uses a pulse from any track sensor to trigger the commercial switchbox that we use to tell the PC (TGG) that something has passed by that sensor. Reed switch sensors are commonly used, triggered by a neo magnet attached to rolling stock. TGG looks after the rest of the loco detection eventing in its programs.

The modules I am trialling use opto-decoupling to isolate the sensors from the upstream components. The fear is that a derailed loco could bridge DCC track power to the sensor circuitry which would likely take out the connection switchbox and could possibly travel up the USB connection into the PC.

The first article modules were originally hard-wired from our sensors to interface the switchbox, but the designer thought to get rid of many metres of interconnect wiring by use of a Wi-Fi link between sensor Tx modules and the collective Rx module connected to the swtichbox. Unfortunately, reliable comms twixt Tx and Rx modules was not forthcoming and that version was binned and it was decided to make the comms part fibre-optic and that has since proven to be bomb-proof.

A side benefit of the modules is that they allow not only the use of the 2-wire reed switch sensors we commonly use as detectors, but also the use of 3-wire Hall-Effect and Infra-Red sensors as well, thus improving the TGG loco detection capability. All TGG needs is a pulse to say something happened at this sensor. No track breaks or isolated blocks are needed.

A further module development is in hand to reduce the wiring even further by planting a motherboard directly onto the switchbox by way of header pins and sockets, then mount daughter boards to the mobo, either as fibre-optic Rx modules for longer distance sensors or as hard-wire modules for nearby sensors, these sub-boards to be user choice. Multiple Tx or hard-wired daughter board modules would allow sensible grouping of sensors across the layout.

[gilbo2]

Thanks 96RAF for the Loco Detection update, interesting and sounds quite complex!

With the info and pointers in this thread I've now been able to resolve by workarounds my issues regarding skipped commands.

1) Referring to this thread, TTS Switching Problems , St1ngr4y explains Function grouping and how to resend / kick start the functions by issuing an unused (or little impact!) function from the same group. It works, now I have a work around for reliable functions in programs when using an Elite. Never had to do all this "messing about" with my eLink though!

2) That thread also discussed reliable point commands which is resolved using double pulse=1 in the .ini file. Again, my eLink doesn't have this issue.

I'm guessing that after all these years this will never get resolved, which is a real shame for something I consider as fundamental. Mind you, if HM7000 + Legacy dongle has this issue, maybe the Elite would be updated!?

As for pure manual control, double pulse = 1 also fixes this for points. However, manual functions may still need another 1 or 2 button presses! I did look at macros to try to switch an unused function automatically but didn't get anywhere, mainly down to it not being possible to have macros with on/off functions.