HST class 43 Bluetooth control questions

[Peachy]

Hey gang, hopefully some testers might be able to answer these questions, (my apologies if they already have elsewhere but I couldn’t find them)

So, I know when the Key Model World/Hornby Magazine chaps ran the running samples of the TT120 HST Class 43 at GETS, they did so with 2 decoders consisting on their own normal DCC system to have directional running lights and sound in both cars (although of course drive from only one) but didn’t use the HM7000 Bluetooth app.

So question 1. Has the app been updated to allow consisting?

Question 2. In DC mode will the running lights change per direction change? (As LEDs only work with the polarity one way)

Question 3. If that’s the case and HM7000 basically runs on DC, will HM7000 users only need one decoder for the power car and leave the blanking chip in the dummy so the lights work as per DC (ok so I understand it won’t have sound in that car)

[LTSR_NSE]

1) No consisting in app available yet - currently being worked on by app developers.

2 & 3) bipolar white/red LEDs exist - so DC running with directional headlights could be possible if Hornby have chosen circuit/components that allow this.

[Fishmanoz]

Going to get interesting when the first digital versions are delivered to TTers powering their layouts with any of the recommended DC PSUs. 

[96RAF]

Feedback from those users will be vital, although it is presumed Hornby already tested that the designed functions worked as expected. Normally a DC blanking plate would have suitable diodes in circuit to enable the lighting, so a dummy car without a decoder powered by a DC PSU would display the correct lighting.

Edit - see later posts ref if this would work or not.

[Fishmanoz]

But if you have the digital pack, will there be any blanking plates with it that would allow lights and no sound in the dummy car as a workaround?

If not, I do have an N18TXS blanking plate from an A1/3 without lights I could experiment with. 

[Peachy]

When I do my review on my channel, I’ll focus more on this and whether or not a powerbank fits rather than box ends and cooing over how pretty it is…

[LTSR_NSE]

Why would the digital sets need blanking plates?

The decoders can already be programmed separately in the app to enable correct lights etc. & the class 43 profile includes function masking to prevent incorrect sounds (horn etc.) from the trailing power car.

For anyone who would (be driven to distraction by) rather not listen to - offset engine sounds, the trailing car’s sound can be switched off.

Once consisting is available in app - this will become moot.

[Peachy]

45 minutes ago, Fishmanoz said:

But if you have the digital pack, will there be any blanking plates with it that would allow lights and no sound in the dummy car as a workaround?

If not, I do have an N18TXS blanking plate from an A1/3 without lights I could experiment with. 

I don’t think that’ll work because even if the dc power is the same, the polarity isn’t switched like DC is when using HM7000 so I guess you must need two decoders if you switching running lights 🤔

[Peachy]

9 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said:

Why would the digital sets need blanking plates?

The decoders can already be programmed separately in the app to enable correct lights etc. & the class 43 profile includes function masking to prevent incorrect sounds (horn etc.) from the trailing power car.

For anyone who would (be driven to distraction by) rather not listen to - offset engine sounds, the trailing car’s sound can be switched off.

Once consisting is available in app - this will become moot.

So I guess we have to treat the dummy as another loco within the app until as you say the consisting becomes available?

[LTSR_NSE]

Just now, Peachy said:

So I guess we have to treat the dummy as another loco within the app until as you say the consisting becomes available?

Exactly! 👍

[HST Mainline]

21 minutes ago, Peachy said:

I don’t think that’ll work because even if the dc power is the same, the polarity isn’t switched like DC is when using HM7000 so I guess you must need two decoders if you switching running lights 🤔

Yes. Correct. Powering the layout with a DC power supply will not make the lights switch. Powering the layout with a DCC power supply will not make the lights switch. Only a decoder can do that. 

If you are running analogue, given the model has a circuit for changing lights over, that will work too, but then you do not have the benefits of DCC or HM7000.

I ordered two Next18 decoders with my HST. 

As you said, you will just have to handle them as two different locos until consisting becomes available. I tend to look at it as part of "running the train" so to speak. I like having to do stuff when I run my train, so I don't mind. When the real thing arrives at a terminal, the driver need to do lots of tasks to reverse the consist. 👍This kind of "simulates that".

Edited February 27 by HST Mainline

[Fishmanoz]

Yep, had forgotten polarity reversal needed, so forget the blanking plug. 

But I can guarantee you, the instant the digital packs arrive with modelers, there’ll be 27 new threads on here, 26 saying I’ve looked but can’t find anything, asking how on earth you run the train. 

And the current answer is, unless you use 2 hands to run the app on 2 devices at the same time with the power car set up in one and the dummy in the other, you won’t be able to synch the sound at both ends of the train. You can only go close by having each end separately in your engine shed on one app and switching between them as you start and stop. 

Until consist functionality is available. 

And I apologize in advance for my cynicism to the 27 who’ve yet to post. 

[LTSR_NSE]

There’ll be a similar number of posts (whether app consisting is available in time for digital sets or not) - since people who are new to HM7k (& never considered DCC) can’t be expected to have heard of consisting & several won’t read a manual anyway.

Edited February 29 by LTSR_NSE

[96RAF]

By now the late great @chrissaf would had one of his famous boilerplate answers in place to refer the expected hordes to, and likely a list of FAQs.

[Fishmanoz]

In the TT:120 Forum, the first HSTs have arrived, the first decoders have been fitted and the how to run question asked. 

26 to go. 

[Dodge1965]

34 minutes ago, Fishmanoz said:

In the TT:120 Forum, the first HSTs have arrived, the first decoders have been fitted and the how to run question asked. 

26 to go. 

Its a shame we are not all as perfect and good as you seem to be. Next time, I will remember not to post in the forum and make any comments at all. Then i will hopefully not go wrong. But i'm pleased to meet your expectations.

[Moccasin]

Great strides have been made already on this fantastic system but there's still some way to go. This issue with the HSTs is a case in point - fixable but currently clunky.

When I was at MRS, Martyn at Hornby recognised that they have work to do in making the HM7000 system easier for new modellers. He pointed at the HM7000 pages in the 2024 catalogue which do feel like two pages of full-on text with a few diagrams. With TT120 in particular attracting new entrants to the hobby who have no knowledge of or interest in electronics, I'd suggest that it is still quite daunting. It's not yet plug and play, which is what Hornby are presumably aiming for.

I've learned a lot myself in the last 12 months, but there's still some way to go before the system matches ambition. Having sound-fitted locomotives is a big step and the app is much better than when first released, but expecting new modellers to understand all this is probably still too much. I fear George and the team will be busy fielding a lot of questions over the next few weeks.

I do think there needs to be a Dummy's Guide to DCC/HM7000.

Edited February 29 by Moccasin

[Dodge1965]

22 minutes ago, Moccasin said:

Great strides have been made already on this fantastic system but there's still some way to go. This issue with the HSTs is a case in point - fixable but currently clunky.

When I was at MRS, Martyn at Hornby recognised that they have work to do in making the HM7000 system easier for new modellers. He pointed at the HM7000 pages in the 2024 catalogue which do feel like two pages of full-on text with a few diagrams. With TT120 in particular attracting new entrants to the hobby who have no knowledge of or interest in electronics, I'd suggest that it is still quite daunting. It's not yet plug and play, which is what Hornby are presumably aiming for.

I've learned a lot myself in the last 12 months, but there's still some way to go before the system matches ambition. Having sound-fitted locomotives is a big step and the app is much better than when first released, but expecting new modellers to understand all this is probably still too much. I fear George and the team will be busy fielding a lot of questions over the next few weeks.

I do think there needs to be a Dummy's Guide to DCC/HM7000.

U mean Dodge's Guide to DCC/HM7000 🤣. I did man look yesterday and thought, might have an issue with control of HST within HMDCC and was happy with that. but didn't read into the profile issue. I feel for people not on here or Facebook. I guess they call Technical.

[96RAF]

44 minutes ago, Moccasin said:

I do think there needs to be a Dummy's Guide to DCC/HM7000.

I was always amazed that the Dummies guide for anything was twice as thick as the real manual. How easy do you want HM7K to be. The CV editor is almost idiot proof and the rest of the app is largely follow on screen prompts. For those who find on screen help to baffling there are many how-to guides to step a newcomer thru' the procedures. If you want to get techy then there is the manual.

[Moccasin]

3 minutes ago, 96RAF said:

I was always amazed that the Dummies guide for anything was twice as thick as the real manual. How easy do you want HM7K to be. The CV editor is almost idiot proof and the rest of the app is largely follow on screen prompts. For those who find on screen help to baffling there are many how-to guides to step a newcomer thru' the procedures. If you want to get techy then there is the manual.

I do take the point, but then there are also still many questions and for those who've been brought up with devices that "just work" - it is still clunky. Better than standard DCC yes but not intuitive. Just the term "consisting" will be alien to anyone coming to the system fresh. There are many coming into the hobby who simply won't know what a CV is (except something they have to write to get a job). It's a jargon heavy subject and that is never helpful to someone new.

Probably needs someone completely new to the subject to write a beginners' guide. 

I appreciate it'll be an unpopular view here but am just offering a different perspective.

[Rallymatt]

The danger is that manuals etc are written by people who already know what they are doing and assume others do too… I still find setting up a printer one of the most tortured experiences electricity has to offer. 

[LTSR_NSE]

It would be unfortunate in the extreme if anyone were discouraged from using this forum.  I am certain that any cynicism expressed was not done so with any intention of causing insult/offence.

Manuals are written for a very broad audience, it is completely understandable/reasonable that the information presented will be very accessible to some, a foreign language to others & somewhere in between for most!

The purpose of this forum is surely for all who are interested, to share their different knowledge/skills/experiences, so that everyone gains!

There have been multiple requests (not just one) for knowledge/advice today relating to this topic & every person that has received assistance has expressed gratitude. Therefore this forum’s purpose is working.

[96RAF]

The problem with any forum like this is someone asks a question and from those few words responders have to immediately work out the skill level and general IQ of the asker and respond in terms levelled at their assumed capability. Often the only way to do this is to assume everyone is a total dim-wit and ask enough questions to work out that the asker may be a genius but has no idea which questions to ask. By dint of perseverance one builds up a picture of each member and casts responses to better match their level. One also learns when to swerve answering a question or getting into a circular argument with another.

[Fishmanoz]

@Dodge1965 might I add to the general apology I gave when I first raised above that this was going to happen by extending to you are specific apology.

I had no intention to denigrate you or anyone when I reported as I did in this thread.  I was simply observing that the current deficiencies in the app were going to show up repeatedly and in glaring detail immediately a double-ended sound loco was released.  Then, deliberately without any reference to you, I reported that it was in fact the case with the HST. 

We know that even a number of experienced posters here tend to be quite specific in their interactions with and knowledge of the forums.  Not many keep in their heads an overview of what has and hasn’t been covered already and where. My head tends to keep that stuff and, consequently, I often post for people links to previous discussion on subjects. And my head only runs to DCC, TT:120 and HM | DCC with a smattering of other technical or forum feedback issues. 

And again, my apologies. 

[Dodge1965]

Thanks Fishy.  Apology accepted , I get and see what u are saying. You want to help people.

i can be short tempered, it’s the old ginger side of me.