3-pole motors

[rayarpino]

Can anyone explain Hornby's decision to revert in many cases for the new production, such as the upcoming D16, to 3-pole motors with flywheel.

Surely 5-pole is smoother (and even better with a flywheel) and I can't imagine there would be a huge difference in cost considering the numbers produced.

What happened to the skew-wound motors?.

And what about coreless motors. Too expensive I suppose.

What's your feeling?

[VESPA]

A sarcastic reply from me rayarpino, but does it matter if the items never arrive?

[poliss]

Modern control systems make 3 pole motors run better, but a 5 pole, skew wound motor, is bound to run better still.

A Japanese firm, well known for N scale models, has announced a loco with a coreless motor and dual brass flywheels.

[rayarpino]

You sarcasm is lost on me on this occasion, Vespa. I don't understand what it has to do with the type of motor. ????

[Michael_A]

All speculation on my part, but maybe it's because magnet technology has moved on, and much more powerful neo magnets are available, so manufacturers may be able to get away with 3 pole motors as they are more powerful. They can perhaps then change the gearing and build in flywheels. I also wonder if having 3 pole makes the motors cheaper to make.

[gilbo2]

Not sure on that one, normally the more poles you have the smoother the performance especially at slow speed. Its sounds like the drive back to 3 pole could be around cost.

I must be honest though, even the old 3 pole motors (eg X04 / ringfield) all work quite well at slow speed when controlled by the R8249 decoder.

[Fishmanoz]

Dg, not recommended to run an X04 with an 8249 as stall current can exceed its capability. Less likely to do so if you have remagnetised incl neo magnet and highly likely if not. 

[gilbo2]

Not lost any yet Fishy in X04's, they are working really well overall. I've used a lot too and had some stall due to sticking valve gear. You can tell that the overload protection kicked in :-)

Maybe I've been lucky I know, but I am happy with the level of risk I'm taking based on practical experience now. I would have to have a lot pop and replaced before I would have spent more than just using the Sapphire in the first place.

[VESPA]

Well if we never see the locos on these shores what does it matter? As long as they run well I think you will find that you may not tell any difference between 3 and 5 pole motors with flywheels.

[Fishmanoz]

You are doing well dg. I lost a 1 Amp continuous decoder on an X04 which stalled with the wheel quartering out. Did so on a point leading me to believe it was just the point it stopped on so I wound the throttle up. Then the supplier replaced the decoder so maybe there had been problems with them on current. 

[Fazy]

What's the big fuss the 3 poles have been used for a while now.  Try opening up the tornado I think the DoG also has one . after all it a toy train.

 Core less motor are lovely but cost a bomb about ten times of a normal motor. And I think you need a good gearbox so a total of about £150 and if its dropped its more than likely time to buy a new one.  I have a couple but would only recommend for a kit loco which tend to weigh more and are more than likely going to be used to pull more then a few couches

And if you still want a five poll motor why not go for 7poll they have been round since the late 60's I had a old railway modeler advertising them for sale. 

[gilbo2]

Sorry to hear that Fishy, the R8249's that I have do seem to have reliable overload protection. Hornby get a lot of unfair bad press over their R8249's, I actually love them, they control motors well for me, reasonably small when installing and with only a few CV's easy to adjust to get good performance.

I've got some of the "full featured" decoders and there is almost too much to adjust and if you dont know what your changing you can easily make locos run badly and end up going round in circles. Even in a shunting yard ;-)

[gilbo2]

It's probably worth just clarifying for anyone else reading this that the R8249's overload protection does not protect against short circuits. Shorts will pop them quicker than anything!

Back to the motors debate, my 1979 Class 52 (3 pole ringfield) actually performs better at slow speeds than my Northern Belle 5-pole skew motor. It seems to be the combination of all parts of the “system” that makes a loco quiet and smooth – power supply, motor, gears, pick-ups etc. A 5 pole motor, in a rubbish “system”, will still perform badly.

[gilbo2]

..... and the Railroad Tornado with its 3-poles and flywheel is a really good performer. Just wish it had a some pickups in its tender ;-)

[Fazy]

 it its more down to a will designed drive chain ie motor gearbox wheels pick up and axles that suits each rather than just going and putting the best motor money can buy in  and thinking that will sort out any short comings in the reat of chain. 

[gilbo2]

Completely agree, we're on the same page.

[poliss]

All other things being equal, a 5 pole, skew wound motor, will always work better than a 3 pole motor. It's the law of physics captain.

The point is that other firms are moving forward by using new technology, while Hornby are going backwards by reverting to 3 pole motors.

[Fazy]

Is it moving forward or just a fad. I mean a 3 poll locomotive looks like a five poll with the body on. And in most cases its going to run on a 6×4 layout pulling 3 couches.  Yes tec has moved on but does a toy need it.

5 poles are better.  Core less are better still. And what about the new digital motors. 

I have built a princess with a core less motor and decant gearbox. As will as some very nice micro roller bearings and yes you can see the difference by far and away the most powerful puller best running quality and a lovely sound.  But £ 200 just for the moter gearbox and bearings. I would think very hard before doing it again.  

And what I am slightly concerned about is people wanting to replace models just for a better motor or gearbox  brought out every other year.  Like we get with other technology.  As for rtrs doing core less am I right in thinking that they are all at the planing stage and we are going to have to wait to see how good they are and what the final cost of them will be. I do hope that they can be used but the cost is  a worry can they be made cheep enough well not making the motor rubbish

[poliss]

The loco in question will be on the shelves in 4 months time. Because of the coreless motor, and other refinements, the loco will have an extremely low starting voltage, high torque and high traction.

Retail price for the whole is well under the £200 you paid for just the motor, gearbox and bearings.

[Fazy]

I have probably missed it but would this locomotive be a J94 WD 0-6-0st by chance

[poliss]

No. It's an American outline loco.

[Fazy]

Well that's hope it does well and doesn't let people down. But I'll save the money for the Q6!

[gilbo2]

The "Simon Says" model of the millennium article "made me" desire the Hornby R2171 Merchant Navy Class No.35005 "Canadian Pacific". I managed to source a "little used" one and converted to DCC. WOW, what incredibly smooth low speed performance from this 5-pole design. It is without doubt the smoothest I have come across from Hornby or the blue box team and I've seen quite a few different locos now to compare against! Even at 2mph its as quiet and as smooth as anything, I don't even think the real thing could do this ;-) I've also achieved this using the often criticised R8249 decoder!

It just shows that with the right design tuning of motor and gears that you can get unbelievably good performance. I compare in particular against the more recent 5 pole Northern Belle class 47 which has shockingly poor low speed performance (have tested two different locos and both as bad).

[Fazy]

So a five pole does not automatically mien a good runner. It's like as I and others have said it's the complete transmission that makes a good runner. And hopefully hornby will pick the right motor gearbox etc for each model to give us a super and hornby will be proud of and customers equally happy with. I have to say I have not had any problems with the basic hornby decoder but you have to take care and think what is it going to be used for. 

[The son of Triangman]

The difference between a 5 pole motor and a 3 pole motor in really good fettle is so minute it's not really worth bothering with. Design of chassis, gearing, pickup, condition of model, standard/quality of production, motor, all influence running abilites.  As has been said a five pole motor is no guarantee than it will run any better than a 3 pole one, other factors are involved.

For those wanting to make X.04's DCC then the Hornby Sapphire is the right decoder for the job, it is perfectly matched to the X.04 in terms of stall current etc. If you want a five pole X.04 then you will be pleased to know that in the early 1970's Hornby made some models such as the L1 and 2P with five pole X.04's, the performance change wasn't worth the effort and the five pole X.04 was quickly dropped.

The standard Hornby decoder is fine but you really need to know the stall current of your model before fitting.