Where have all the ships gone, Mr Airfix?

[peebeep]

Airfix have many ships in their tool bank, but why are only a few available?

I would say its down to sales. Companies like Airfix go by feedback from retailers/point of sale. If traders stop ordering stuff there's no commercial incentive to produce sprues, boxes, instructions and decals. to then have it sit in a warehouse. If the only kits available are Bismark, HMS Hood, HMS Victory etc, that's probably because they're the kits that traders are selling and want to re-stock.

[Simon Norton1707820138]

I imagine there are a number of reasons why there are currently almost no ships in the catalogue. The main one being Airfix don't think they'll sell in sufficient numbers for it to be economic to tool up. The last Black Friday sale the HMS Illustrious gift set  was going for less than £20 and HMS Daring for £25. If they are selling at a 50-66% discount it would indicate that they aren't exactly racing off the shelves. Bismarck was being sold off for  £3.49.

Most of the 1:600 warships date to the 1960's and much as I personally enjoy building them, they are crude by today's standards and in some cases the moulds are showing signs of age, to the point where the part fit is unaccepatble. Apart from the Series 4 Battleships most haven't been in production since the 1980s, so how viable are the moulds?

However, I would be prepared to place a small bet on a 1:350 Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier from Airfix in the next few years.

[Jonathan Mock]

Having read through the ensuing comments, I think I need to clarify my original question: Airfix have many ships in their tool bank, but why are only a few available? If they want to be seen as a kit maker that offers ships shouldn't they offer them available as pre-order even if they are not currently available? This applies especially to the newer 1/350 scale kits as this is the preferred scale of most ship modellers nowadays and should be the scale of choice for any new ship toolings by Airfix! 

 

I would imagine only a few available because there's no market for the rest of them at the moment.

 

 

Pre-ordering means that they'd have to have boxes, decals, instructions and kits in stock to be able to send them to order.

 

 

 

[feanor]

Ayup Russell...

 

The same place as all my posts but two on this Forum. Davy Jones' Locker !

Personally, I'd like to see the 'Naval History' waterline series again, plus the smaller 'Classic' Tall ships.  I just bought a late issue Mayflower AND Golden Hind at a Tenner apiece from Kingkit ! never thought I'd ever do that. Certainly not when I first bought and made them when I was 7, 8 or 9. But I know theres no chance whatsoever. However, all the answer you'll get here is what you got im afraid, and not even the much vaunted Kitstarter Idea lasted because people didnt want what was initially offered for the same reason no doubt.(and the prices !)

Unfortunately I cant think of any anniversaries that may help you (or me !)  And Hornby Groups woes can only exacerbate the situation. How do you feel about Balsa, Talc and Dope ???   

 

[William Morrison]

So, here we are arguing a "Catch-22".  On the one hand, products are driven by sales; on the other, sales will not remain constant without new products.  In my case, I already have all of the sailing ships ever produced by Airfix, Revell, Zvesda, and all of the historic ships by Heller.  It does me no good to have Airfix re-release any of their old kits.  At least Revell occasionally releases a new product, as does Zvesda.  I do purchase those.  I did purchase the Mary Rose when Airfix released it, but it is far too small to be truly enjoyable.

So, if companies want higher sales, they must produce new kits.  No one remains profitable if they remain stagnant.

[Jonathan Mock]

The question would be William, how much of the market is made up of people like yourselves? With aircraft there tend to be repeat purchases, they open themselves up to people wanting to finish them in alternative schemes or convert them.You're pretty much describing the ship model market as a one-shot deal. In which case there would have to be a lot of modellers out there to make each new release vialble if all they are doing is buying one kit, then waiting for the next one.

 

Unfortunately, investing to chase a market ends up being a bit like Penelope's shroud. Bring two new ship kits out and the response will be if should have been four. Bring four new ships out and should have been eight. Bring eight new ships etc... All the while investment is being tied up in a Field of Dreams promise of "make them and they will come". I don't think it's a case of not trying hard enough to stimulate a market but rather there just isn't the market for it when compared to other subject matter. Your favourite modelling genre may just not be other people's.

If aircraft offer the best investment out/profit in ratio, then there's your answer.

 

sales will not remain constant without new products

 

Which gets disproved by the number of old kits that have soldiered on through the decades, bringing the readies in, like the old Spitfire IX, Sherman tank etc...

[Simon Norton1707820138]

I'm not sure I agree with Jonathan's comments about aircraft lending themselves to repeat purchases but not ships. There is far more scope for conversion and alternate schemes for ships than aircraft. Not only can ships be converted to different members of their class but during their lifetimes, and a lot of the RN battleships were in service for 20-30 years, they changed considerably during their career. For example the Airfix HMS Warspite is how she appeared in WW2. With a bit of work she  can be converted to another Queen Elizabeth class battleship of the period or, with a lot more work back to how she appeared in WW1 or between the wars. She can even be used a basis for a conversion to a 'Revenge' class battleship. She also sported several different colour schemes over her career. 

As I've said before I think Airfix missed a trick in only ever releasing one ship in each class, Bismarck/Tirpitz excepted, when a sprue of alternate parts could have got them 5 or more kits from one basic mould. The Heller 1:400 battleships all came with alternates from what I remember.

Unfortunately, ships aren't nowhere near as popular as aircraft and  I think 1:600 has had it's day. Since I only build probably one ship kit a year, most of which have been sitting on a shelf for 30+ years or rescued from the bargain bin, they aren't going to get rich off the likes of me.

[Jonathan Mock]

I'm not sure I agree with Jonathan's comments about aircraft lending themselves to repeat purchases but not ships. There is far more scope for conversion and alternate schemes for ships than aircraft. 

The alternative colour schemes and conversions of aircraft are far more tangible, especially for the layman. Knowing the differences in refits between RN battleships requires a certain amount of knowledge of the subtleties, whereas the differences in camo and markings for, say a Spitfire, are much more accessible - and cheaper.

 

Something like a 1/72 Spitfire lends itself to repeat purchases simply because of the subject matter potential, size and price. Plus the aftermarket out there to do this is comparitively cheap when comapred to the sort of (excellent) upgrades that White Ensign do.

 

As you say, ships aren't nowhere near as popular as aircraft - and kit manufacture is a business, not a service.

[Simon Norton1707820138]

If you are going to build, for example, a Spitfire then, with a few exceptions, there will be a kit of the particular mark you are looking for. So a "layman" is going to buy the mark he wants and maybe aftermarket decals for a particular aircraft. I don't see the aircraft market lending itself to multiple purchases of the same kit, unlike say AFVs or figures where multiple kits for wargaming or dioramas might be purchased. 

Going by the articles in Airfix Model World there doesn't seem to be much appetite for conversions anymore. In 60 odd issues I don't think there has been a single one.

[Jonathan Mock]

I don't see the aircraft market lending itself to multiple purchases of the same kit, unlike say AFVs or figures where multiple kits for wargaming or dioramas might be purchased.

The number of people on the dozens of modelling forums and Facebook pages who buy multiple copies of the same aircraft kit would tend to fly in the face of that.

 

 

 

[ironsides]

I probably built a dozen or more of all Airfixs WW1 Aircraft over the years(let alone the other manufacturers) sometimes building in multiples, more recently WW2 models include the Defiants and Blenheims and will probably buy more.. so I have a tendency to agree with Mr Mock on this one... If its a good kit, there was plenty built and many Airforces used them, it naturally lends itself to multiple purchases... 😉

[feanor]

Hmmm.

Part of the problem also, is the lack of advertisement of the overall capabilities of the New Airfix. Most of the 'Military Modelling' type magazines tend to see that niche as Armour, and of course, the only marine Aircraft I'd ever expect to see are the likes of the Sea Hurri, Duck and Firefly etc, and it would probably take A.N. editors random sudden interest in one of these subjects to even vaguely focus a beam of light towards the sea. Also, it would seem that Airfixes advertising is simply very very focussed on each new single item being flogged nowadays, So no more lovely flyers in kit boxes featuring a car, train, boat AND aeroplane, which might have inspired someone somewheres to change tack (geddit) and buy not an Aeroplane. But before I get the usual tedious chorus of 'That was then this is now' malarkey, I'll say ' I know' but I'll also say that whilst riding the crest of the current wave, which Airfix is, it would be nice to see other Genres languishing in Airfixes vaults being catered for as well at their expense. Airfix isn't just Wingy-Thingies you know.

[Jonathan Mock]

I probably built a dozen or more of all Airfixs WW1 Aircraft over the years(let alone the other manufacturers) sometimes building in multiples, more recently WW2 models include the Defiants and Blenheims and will probably buy more.. so I have a tendency to agree with Mr Mock on this one... If its a good kit, there was plenty built and many Airforces used them, it naturally lends itself to multiple purchases... 😉

Plus multiple-choice aftermarket decal sheets - or indeed alternate kit markings - can influence a second or third purchase to use up the other options.

[William Morrison]

Jonathan,

You are making my point; if the old kits can soldier on, having suitable buyers, then there would be more buyers in line for new products.  There is a frenzy going on right now on sites such as eBay or oldmodelkits.com for the more rare Airfix sailing ships.  The French ship-of-the-line St.Louis just recently sold for close to $140.00!  The HMS Prince and Royal Sovereign regularly sell for similar prices.  I have seen the 1/600 scale line of sailing ships going for up to $76.00.  We are starving for new products!

In short, I strongly believe that Airfix is missing out on a potential market aimed towards ship modelers.  Indeed, there are enough of us out there willing to pay hundreds or well over a thousand dollars for a wood kit; I submit that there would be an eager and receptive market for a broader range of all types of ships, including sailing ships.

Bill

[DavidJC]

I really don't know, but I suspect such models are going for such prices due to the simple fact they are rare. I even wonder if they are being kept back for resale later for even higher prices. I'm not so sure it's because people are desperate to buy them to make.

 

We're also only looking at a handful of kits and buyers, whatever the cost. Can any company, let alone Airfix, gamble on the fact that there's a whole new untapped market out there?

[ironsides]

I wouldn't say the majority of Airfix ships kits were particularly rare as I've seen quite a few selling on ebays and have picked up a fair number from that site, the most I paid was 30€ for a genuinly rare red stripe boxing of the Endeavor(rear quarter art work) for the rest the price was much less, I think Collectable kits in good condition are more likely to fetch a good price then a recent reissue in many cases simply because their collectable, but all kits are not equal in this regard often going for easily less then the price of a new kit.... rare for me would be a Quantas Avro 504 and they do go for very good prices 😉

[Ratch]

 Before Prinz Eugen was recently reissued, it regularly went for £40 on ebay. I paid £39 for mine, then picked up a second for £8 at a model show and just last week bought a third for £16. One has already been built and the other two will be built too, one waterlined and the other in a variant scheme to my already completed one. So you can buy multiple warships to build just as easily as aircraft.

[William Morrison]

Can any company, let alone Airfix, gamble on the fact that there's a whole new untapped market out there?

Isn't that the spirit behind capitalism?  Manufacturers like Dragon, Trumpeter, Tamiya, Hasegawa, Aoshima, and Academy gambled precisely on this issue by diving into the very small world of ship modelers to greatly expand the inventory of available ship models, even gambling on two new scales, 1/700 and 1/350, and changed our hobby forever.  Any model-manufacturing company continuing to ignore any aspect of ship modeling, or upgrading their old offerings, will not prosper in this field.  It seems to be worth the try.

[Jonathan Mock]

Can any company, let alone Airfix, gamble on the fact that there's a whole new untapped market out there?

Where is the evidence that there is a whoel new market waiting to be "untapped"? As I said earlier, given the expense in researching, designing and tooling up ships, I'd suggest that it's the one modelling area where it would be the worst thing to take a Field of Dreams gamble on the basis of "make them, and they will come."

 

I honestly don't think there is an untapped market out here just waiting for the right number of kits at the right scale and right price for them to start throwing money at kit companies. The history of kit manufcature has too many instances of this happening only for the market to not be what was promised - at which point the wise sages who'd proffered the promises of success then start saying that it was the wrong type of ship, the wrong scale, the wrong price... Faced with that, who can blame kit companies for sticking to what works and - more importantly - what brings in a capital return that can be reinvested, rather than waiting for the promise of a market that will pick up. It's easy for people to say this when it's not their hundred of thousands £$£$£ tied up waiting for payback.

 

To go back to your original question "Where have all the ships gone?". More people were buying aircraft or tank kits, than were buying ship kits and the so the ships get mothballed. And in the case of older toolings, more people were buying the older aircraft kits or older tanks kits to keep them sustainable, while the older ship kits floundered. Retailers simply stopped order them because customers were not buying them.

 

Long story short, as with any kit company, if products were making money they'd be on sale.

 

 

If they're not, there's your aswer,

[John Symmons]

Hi Russell & William Morrison

Your original question "Where have all the ships gone" there haven't gone it's just Airfix isn't producing them at present except for the ones they NEED for the museums like HMS Belfast etc. Some of the new models sold out VERY quickly, and the fact that they are no longer available is proof of this, both ships & aircraft, as it seems Airfix with limited resources like manufacturing and money can't re-run a model as soon as stocks are exhaused. (Like the ski equiped Galdiator I brought last Febuary with faulty decals. At the time still on their shop catalogue, but was told when I contacted them, a few days after purchase, for a new decal sheet that the model was "out of stock". I'm still waiting.) Seems Airfix is concentrating on new wingy things; which helps me with fine quality Luftwaffer models & related ground wheely things as and adjunct to the wingy things. Persumably there are less rescource intensive to bring to market and the customer base is known.

I agree with William Morrison's comments and I re-itterate my own arguments and comments from further back in this discusion there IS a market for ship modeling. Just look at ModelWarships.com and see all the adds on their home page, and their new stuff for August. Ship modelling IS alive and well, which is why Tamiya, Trumpeter etc are still making model kits of ships. While I do mainly model aircraft as they are generally fairly easy and quick a decent model ship even a Hobby Boss one, does require quite a commitment in time and dedication to complete; far more than a mere aircraft (Now that should get some responce.) I know that to be true because I have quite a few ships waiting in dry dock, including the Dragon Sharnhorst and to be honest it scares the bee-jee-bers out of me. I'm looking at nearly a years commitment in time. Maybe that's why the old Airfix 600 ships were so popular; in there time you got a reasonable model that you could finish to a basic standard or go full-out with all the photo etch etc if you wanted. ( See my post on the Manxman & Cambletown) But by todays standard they're now a bit too basic compared to the current Eastern 700 scale; although the KGV, Repulse, Prinz Eugen, Victorious, Ark Royal, Manxman, Hotspur, Narvik, and Fearless could be re-issued as all were quite good kits and might just stand up to modern scrutiny, especially if some basic brass etch like railing were offered. As for the rest they sould all be scuttled even the Warspite with those horrid gun barrels (what were they thinking). Maybe some could be saved with some new sprues but is it really worth it.

Is releasing model ships such a gamble I think not after all just look at the interest this post has garnered, and ships do seem to be the bread-&-butter of Trumpeter and Dragon and I'm sure Tamiya wouldn't have kept their 350 scale ships available for over 45 years if they weren't selling. As I said before all it takes is for Airfix to have the WILL, and they CAN have a world beater. After-all the Royal Navy must be one of the oldest armed forces in the world with a history of inovation second to none. Come on Airfix it needs to be celebrated,

We can always live in hope.

Remember we do this for fun     John the Pom

[Jonathan Mock]

The answer to which is, where are the Type 45 Destroyer and Trafalgar Class sub? New tooling in the "right" scale (1/350), the Type 45 was a "much requested item" and yet has been withdrawn just four years after it was released.If there was such an "untapped market" out there, they'd still be in production. They're not.Why are they not in the range any more?

[ironsides]

"After-all the Royal Navy must be one of the oldest armed forces in the world with a history of inovation second to none. Come on Airfix it needs to be celebrated"

And what better way to start that celebration With  a new kit of HMS Warrior...... http://www.hmswarrior.org/

😀

[Jonathan Mock]

It's also easy to look at other kits ranges and think "well company X does ships, why doesn't company Y?".

 

Tamiya don't do 1/72 armour. Dragon, Hasegawa, Trumpter, Revell, Academy and Italeri do. Tamiya doesn't. Hasegawa don't do 1/35 armour. They did a couple of Kubelwagens, but that was it. Italeri and Revell don't do 1/24 aircraft. Etc etc...

 

The point is that all kit companies have markets where they do well in some things, not in others. The answer to "where have all the ships gone" is "were enough people buying them to make them sustainable?'. End of the day, kit companies are run on sales, not ideas.

[Ratch]

The answer to which is, where are the Type 45 Destroyer and Trafalgar Class sub? New tooling in the "right" scale (1/350), the Type 45 was a "much requested item" and yet has been withdrawn just four years after it was released.If there was such an "untapped market" out there, they'd still be in production. They're not.Why are they not in the range any more?

Jon, Airfix seem to release product for 3-4 years then withdraw it (apart from the staple diet). This includes aircraft kits and appears to be their strategy. Its not a Ship thing, but consistent with the entire range.

[Ratch]

Double post - please delete