TTS locos only working in one direction...

[96RAF]

There have been several reports recently about TTS equipped locos only working when placed on the track in one direction and not when physically reversed, e.g. when exiting a reverse loop. This usually only happens with a non Hornby controller.

 

It has been mooted on another forum that if the loco is placed on the programming track the other way round and is reprogrammed this may resolve the matter.

 

There is no logical reason why this should work as DCC 'polarity' is not direction sensitive, but it would be interesting if someone who has seen this problem could give the 'flipped 180' programming a try and report back.

 

Physically turning the loco on the main or programming track is the equivalent of just swapping the controller wires to that track over, which may be easier to do for this exercise.

 

Thanks

Rob

[Robby_50]

I usually use a Sprog and JMRi to programme locos. I programmed both a Classs 20TTS R3394TTS and a railroad class 31 with an added TTS The locos worked fine on number 3 on my Sprog and Z21 Once you change the loco address the locos only respond one way round and physically turning them round results in no response at all. Restoring the number to 3 doesn't work. I don't think changing the loco round will help because it seems completely unresponsive when you do so. Anyway I'll try. The renumbered locos  ( programmed on Sprog ) work fine on elink/Raimaster but only work one way round on Roco Z21 and apparently many other controllers. I reprogrammed one loco on Railmaster and again it works fine on Railmaster but only one way round on Z21.

[96RAF]

Thanks for the response. I am sure Hornby will be looking at these results which hopefullly will lead to a solution.

 

Unfortunately I don't suppose every manufacturer can afford to have one each of all the others kit to test their products on, especially those the price of say an ECoS around £700.

 

Then have to keep the firmware all up to date, or not, and as we have seen some manufacturers have updated their firmware to solve this problem but it that means return to works at some expense to do that people may not want to.

 

In theory if stuff is NMRA compliant then it should all play nice together but we know it doesn't.

Rob

[Robby_50]

Have tried suggestion but once loco address changed the loco will only programme in one direction and changing loco round results in no response from loco. This does not happen with elink/Railmaster. Earlier TTS locos such as class 37, class 47 and P2 work fine, having been programmed in exactly the same way. Suggests to me that something has been changed on new TTS decoders

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I have not noticed any problems with a R3393TTS Class 47 on a Flieschmann / ROCO Multimaus...yet!

 

I will have to check this.....

 

One thing I have noticed is that the instructions clearly shew the loco body to be mounted with the 'fan' end at the 'motor' end.

 

I believe that the convention with Diesel locos is that the 'No.1' end, or 'front' of the loco is the 'fan' or 'radiator' end?

 

The Multimaus has forward and reverse notation, and my 47 with the body on as per instructions was running backwards when set to run forwards!

 

A quick addition of '1' to CV 29 has sorted that out for now.

 

Is this a common situation with these models? I have only got the one! 😉

 

[Bigskybirds]

If you flip the loco you can program it but it does not resolve the issue with my TTS 31 or 67

 

It has been reported on Digitrax, Ecos, Bachmann, Roco and Hornby select. When I spoke to Hornby last week they had no fix. 

[Bigskybirds]

I have managed to get one TTS to work, so now I need to see if I can replicate it. 

[petermc]

Hi All,

I have a EcoS 50210 controller and have three TTs locos that will only run when pointing in one direction, namely the New Merchant Navy TTS, the Class 31 TTS and the Virgin 125 TTS, My other slighly older TTS locos that I have all appear to work fine. Note the problem Locos all work fine with my retired Hornby Elite. I have contacted Southwest Digital who import ESU equipment and they say they have recently become aware of this problem and have advised ESU. I asked how I stand as a customer and they stated it is a Hornby problem and that the ECoS works fine with all other decoders. They stated that ESU may be able to create a firmware update to resolve the problem but did not know if or when that would be. I contacted Hornby and was asked to send the locos in for investigation. I did this. That was 10 days ago and have heard nothing so far. I also placed a question for the techs at ESU on the ESU support forum but again nothing heard so far.

Three new TTS  locos represents a lot of money invested so it would be nice  to know what was happening, if anything,to resolve this issue.

I have posted a video explaining the above issue on Youtube if anyone is interested - https://youtu.be/ZMm6YGcSwbo 

I have had help from others in the various Model railway forums but nothing has worked so far. I would be interested to find out what HFM161216 has managed to achieve to get his loco working correctly

A note regarding flipping the afflicted loco on the programming track. If you do this with the ECoS it doesnt recognise there is a DCC loco present and you can proceed no further so that idea also doesnt appear to work

- Peter

[james_nelmes]

I've just fitted the Class 31 TTS chip to my R3067 31256 railroad model. It works really well and was very easy to fit. I've reprogrammed the locomotive number using a Hornby Select (latest firmware) and it is working in both directions.

[Robby_50]

I have tried a couple of other controllers in addition to my Sprog and Z21 that have this problem with new TTS decoders. Lenz 100 gives same result ( loco only working correctly one way round ) whilst on a NCE Powercab it works just fine.

Hornby really should have tried out the decoders on a variety of controllers ( if Hornby can't afford to buy a selection there are several retailers who I'm sure would have helped at a small cost or even for free if allowed to advertise that Hornby uses their expertise to check decoders).

I also tried reprogramming the number. Turns out that the decoder will only programme with the loco turned one way and have to turn it round for it to work then have to turn it round again to programme again. Hopefully its probably just a CV problem and can be quickly sorted out.

I notice that nowhere on the documentation does Hornby make any mention of NMRA compatibility for these decoders. Anyway my intended purchase of at least 10 TTS decoders is now on hold until this is sorted out.

[Rog RJ]

Try programming on the main instead of on the programming track.  Some people say it works but I don't know if it will cure the only running in one direction problem.

[Welshmre]

Try programming on the main instead of on the programming track.  Some people say it works but I don't know if it will cure the only running in one direction problem.

Just received a TTS 31 this morning. Use a Fleischman multimaus on a 680801. 30 locomotives work no problem at all. However this new loco has the reported problems shown above PLUS if it goes around my reverse loop on either my hornby OR Fleischman reverse loop controller the loco just speeds off!!! All of these faults are highlighted on other forums!! 

Really not good as its obvious someone has made a change to The TTS.

[Owlman]

I have exactly the same problem with a hornby class 31 TTS in a R2571 31111 and I programmed it with a Bachmann dynamis on the main track. Not only does it have this problem it runs absolutely awful at low speed. I was all set to return the chip until I saw this thread and realised others were having the same problems. 

[olly]

I have exactly the same problem with a hornby class 31 TTS in a R2571 31111 and I programmed it with a Bachmann dynamis on the main track. Not only does it have this problem it runs absolutely awful at low speed. I was all set to return the chip until I saw this thread and realised others were having the same problems. 

With the poor running of the 31 have you tried changing  either  CV 150 to value 1 or CV 151 to  value 255  and CV 152 to value 1 both ways will improve the running .

 

Sorry I can't help with the direction and programming issues.

 

I don't think anyone has a solution yet 

 

 

[Bigskybirds]

Yesterday I received two more TTS class 31's from Rails they also supplied the first two that had direction issues. The new ones do not have the same problem and when I spoke with Rails they said they were from a different batch. 

[olly]

Yesterday I received two more TTS class 31's from Rails they also supplied the first two that had direction issues. The new ones do not have the same problem and when I spoke with Rails they said they were from a different batch. 

 

Thats intresting that theres two batches of decoders or have one lot been taken from locomotives ?

Did they come in the packing?

glad you have got yours sorted . Are you fitting them in a railroad or the high detail model?

[Owlman]

I have exactly the same problem with a hornby class 31 TTS in a R2571 31111 and I programmed it with a Bachmann dynamis on the main track. Not only does it have this problem it runs absolutely awful at low speed. I was all set to return the chip until I saw this thread and realised others were having the same problems. 

With the poor running of the 31 have you tried changing  either  CV 150 to value 1 or CV 151 to  value 255  and CV 152 to value 1 both ways will improve the running .

 

Sorry I can't help with the direction and programming issues.

 

I don't think anyone has a solution yet 

 

 

Thank you very much for the advice, I changed the CV's and it is a far better loco now. I also tried the loco with the Hornby Railmaster & E-Link and the loco can be swapped around with no problems!

[96RAF]

Contact HCC and describe your problem, especially if having TTS problems when using an 'alien' controller. They probably have a fix for it.

Rob

[olly]

I've had an email from rails of Sheffield today about there new hornby black 5 with TTS sound 

 

they say that the decoder in these has a new firmware and will work with different controllers with out problems.

 

I wonder if hornby can update the firmware on the decoders ? or are they going to replace them with new ones. 

 

I have been very disappointed with the class 31 TTS I even sent it back to hornby as the volume was very quiet and they just sent it back and saying the the sound was as recorded  .

I have now fitted a zimo 3D optimised speaker and still had to put the volume up to 7 

I had planned to buy about seven TTS decoders but have put that on hold till I know they will work with different controllers and have a better volume 

 

I think hornby should make a statement about the TTS sound decoders and what they are going to do about it 

[morairamike]

I have fitted 3 TTS decoders, two A 4s and one Castle. One of the A 4s and the Castle came from Hornby direct, the other A 4 came from another supplier. The 3 locos were all Hornby DCC ready and about 10 years old.

I fitted them using sugar cube speakers, one A 4 and the Castle in the tender (also decoder moved to tender on Castle when fitted in heat shrink it wouldn't  fit in the loco). The other A 4 the speaker and decoder are in the loco.

My controller is Prodigy 2. The chips were programmed on the program track for loco number short address and then CV 178 changed on the main to adjust overall volume. These are set at 3 in the A 4 loco mounted speaker and Castle and 4 in the tender mounted speaker A 4. The original A 4 speaker from Hornby started to distort after being tried at vol 8. Hornby replaced it FOC.

Resetting CV8 to 8 for total and 5 for sound was tried numerous times when the speaker failed, each time the result was the same, distortion. Substituting another 8 ohm 1 watt speaker proved speaker failure in original.

For what it is worth I think that £39 is good value for sound bearing in mind that other decoders are 3 times the price

[Fishmanoz]

Not surprisingly given the new TTS releases, we have lots of topics and posts concerning them and whether they can be fitted to non-TTS locos and even non-DCC Ready locos, and various problems people are having, with speaker performance and reliability featuring heavily.  The trouble is posts on these subjects are spread all over the topics whether relevant or not.  I think it may be too late now for any of the mods to sort this out, however I would suggest that maybe a new topic titled something like TTS Observations would be useful and that’s where I would put mike’s post above.

 

Now returning to the subject of this topic, TTS locos operating in only one direction after programming, I’ve been musing on this, dangerous I know, and remain bemused.  By rights a loco/decoder should not be able to tell which way around it is.  The only difference should be phase and, given there is no zero phase reference anywhere in the system, this should make no difference either.  The only way I can see that it could possibly make a difference is if the controller is not producing a symmetrical signal above and below the zero voltage reference.  Even then, this is far-fetched because even a distorted controller signal must be recognized as DCC for the decoder to respond to it.  And the response when programming is to write zeros and ones into the CV registers and these will be independent of any distortion at the input as any distortion is “digitized out”, one of the advantages of digital in the first place (it doesn’t need linear signal paths).

 

Then the same far-fetchedness applies to any “firmware” in the decoder, noting that I define firmware to be an embedded operating system in the chip, as opposed to simply stored data.  On this definition I have no idea if the chips contain firmware or just digitized stored sounds. But again it should be irrelevant as all storage whether operating system or data is digitized.  

 

But it’s all very well my saying it isn’t possible as it clearly is because it is happening.  I’ll be very interested to understand how and what the fix is.

[96RAF]

On another forum a statement was made that having Railcom enabled on an 'alien' controller was damaging TTS decoders.

 

More impossible nonsense you might think, but what if it was the Railcom 'interruption'  of the DCC signal (see NMRA standards for more info about how Railcom does this) that was causing the TTS decoder to become directionally confused - not damaged (as we know they work fine with Hornby controllers).

 

A decoder is likely programmed in the firmware part of the main decoder to listen out and react to such commands. How this applies to a non-Railcom capable decoder I am not sure.

 

More questions than answers unfortunately ...

Rob

[Froggie]

Hi everyone.

Newbie here. I thought I'd add my 2 euros worth. I too have issues regarding TTS equipped locos. I saw further up the thread that someone is having problems with TTS and ECoS. My problem is this: I cannot get the ECoS to 'read' the chip profile of my Class67 - the loco charges off at full tilt along the programming track (I don't have anything longer at the moment). If I hold the loco in place manually, the ECoS will start reading the profile - no ESU, no Selectrix and then Motorola, at which point it then wakes up, starts accelerating against my hand and the ECoS cuts out (red stop) and then says 'no loco on track'. If I delete the loco, it finds the loco at address 3 and it behaves fine - everything works: slow running, realistic acceleration (within the confines of the programming track), sounds, backwards, forwards - as it should. The gripe I have is I CANNOT change the chip address from Default3 to anything - not single, double, triple or as I want, a 4-digit address. You will say: 'Aha - you need to get into CV17 to get into the long address'. Well, all fine and dandy but for two things: (1. In the ECoS there is a box to tick, CV29.5, to enable 'long address' but nothing - just will not work. I have to delete the loco and start again as it will not revert back to Default3. (2. In order to address CV17, you need to read the chip profile, which is not happening as mentioned above. In any case even if I could read CV17 I would have no idea as to the value to give it, as in the Sound Decoder Manual it just says: 'CV17 Default 192 Value 192-231' which means absolutely nothing to me. I haven't tried turning the loco around - it should make absolutely no difference as it's AC current in the track. Sounds a bit like a well-known fruity mobile 'phone maker when told of issues with a certain model of their 'phone said: 'You're holding it wrong'.

Just an aside, someone above mentioned the 'King'. I too had problems in changing from Default3 to a 4-digit address on the loco. However, a young lad at the local railway club was able to read the chip profile via the ECoS and then after a bit a fiddle in the CVs, he was able to give a 4-digit address. BUT, in my IMHO, all this should be absolutely straight forward, and not have to delve into CVs and have to dwiddle here and tweak there.

Oh, and by the way, I really do hope this can be resolved 'at home', as to sort it out, otherwise means sending my kit back to the UK - and whilst postage is quick it's also expensive!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil

[96RAF]

Froggie recently there has been lots of discussion about TTS and ECOS on another forum, but this has died down lately making me think people are waiting for a response from both Hornby and the ECOS support areas.

 

I would contact both and see what they have to say about the matter as from memory of the discussion the ECOS can have its firmware updated at home by a user and Hornby may be prepared to send you a fettled decoder to replace at home given your remote circumstances, rather than have to send the whole loco back.

Rob

[Froggie]

Hi RAF96,

Thanks for the update - I haven't seen all the forums nor all the other sites and their forums - yet! I hadn't realised so many people had issues with the TTS and other non-Hornby controllers.Thought it was just me. I did however note a while ago that even non-sound Hornby chips just didn't want to 'play nice' with the ECoS and I decided to keep to ESU ones only. However, there is a price premium and the TTS locos seemed too good to miss at the price. If cost is not an issue, I can tell you that Zimo sound chips work with Hornby quite well. I shall be wary of TTS for a while until the matter is sorted.

Good news nonetheless if what you say is correct that Hornby may send out a replacement chip. I need to do a firmware update on th ECoS anyway as I haven't so done for some time.

Cheers

Froggie