Transferring RM to a new user

[Nolly1953]

When my brother passed away recently, I was responsible for disposing of his belongings.  I spoke to a local railway club member who informed me that a second-hand elink interface and software disk were virtually worthless.  I thought that this was unlikely since I believe that my brother had paid of the order of £100 for this unit.

I emailed support@rail-master.com who replied "As the software licence is not transferable another user will not be able to activate it again however, if your sell on the system without the software the purchaser can buy a new licence key to activate."

I presume that my brother has installed the software on has laptop, but since the laptop is pass-word protected, I haven't been able to confim.  I downloaded the evaluation version to my own PC to check out what I had been told and it seems that a new licence costs £64.99.  This seems to confirm what I was told.  

Perhaps someone on the forum could confirm this or let me know if I have picked this up wrong.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[westernwill]

Hattons are still selling new Railmaster licences for £5 plus postage. 

 

You have a choice, either sell the Elink on its own or buy a new copy of Railmaster from hattons and sell it on with the Elink as a complete package.

 

Just remember not to activate the new copy of RM or it will become non-transferable.

 

Hope this helps.

[Nolly1953]

Hattons are still selling new Railmaster licences for £5 plus postage. 

 

You have a choice, either sell the Elink on its own or buy a new copy of Railmaster from hattons and sell it on with the Elink as a complete package.

 

Just remember not to activate the new copy of RM or it will become non-transferable.

 

Hope this helps.

westernwill - thank you so much for your prompt reply which would I presume solve my problem.  

[MetmanUK]

I'd be interested to know Hornby's opinion of the EU judgement 2012 that says licences that are indefinite are "sales" and as such are transferable.  I'm no expert but it's got me wondering.

[Fishmanoz]

My quick reading says the licenses at issue are multi-user licenses where the original purchaser doesn’t need all the users and on-sells those not needed. That isn’t the case for RM.

[Augustus Caesar]

"...the second acquirer of the licence, as well as any subsequent acquirer of it, will be able to rely on the exhaustion of the distribution right under Article 4(2) of that directive, and hence be regarded as lawful acquirers of a copy of a computer program within the meaning of Article 5(1) of that directive and benefit from the right of reproduction provided for in that provision."

 

Simply put  the software is passed to a second owner who acquires the license and is able to use it while the original acquirer loses that right. The license stays with the software thus meaning a transfer is legal to one and subsequent acquirers while each prior user loses its use and license to the new acquirer.

Do Hornby know of this and is it written into their T&C's to over-ride this? It can't is the simple answer. However, no-one has tested it with Hornby.

[MetmanUK]

"...the second acquirer of the licence, as well as any subsequent acquirer of it, will be able to rely on the exhaustion of the distribution right under Article 4(2) of that directive, and hence be regarded as lawful acquirers of a copy of a computer program within the meaning of Article 5(1) of that directive and benefit from the right of reproduction provided for in that provision."

 

Simply put  the software is passed to a second owner who acquires the license and is able to use it while the original acquirer loses that right. The license stays with the software thus meaning a transfer is legal to one and subsequent acquirers while each prior user loses its use and license to the new acquirer.

Do Hornby know of this and is it written into their T&C's to over-ride this? It can't is the simple answer. However, no-one has tested it with Hornby.

That's how I understand it.

[westernwill]

Looking through the ruling I believe it is only referring to copies of copies. i.e A user buys a copy and subsequenrtly buys a licence to make further copies for it's users. 

 

It is these copies that are being referred to.

 

Also there is the proviso that this ruling only applies if there is no specific contractual agreement referring to those copies.

 

So I do not think this applies to Railmaster.

[96RAF]

I would suggest that the actual terms and conditions of any particular software licence overule the generic licence 'law' quoted.

This extract from the RM licence, which you accept upon installation of RM...

1. GRANT AND SCOPE OF LICENCEBy you agreeing to abide by the terms of this licence the Application Provider hereby grants to you a non-exclusive, non-transferable licence to use the Application on ONE DEVICE in accordance with the terms of this Licence.

Rob

[Augustus Caesar]

@RAF

 

But that's Hornby's own text. It is not that of the EU which overrides that in any court if tested.

Anyone can put anything into Terms and Coniditions but as we all know "This does not affect your statutory rights".

 

@Westernwill

 

The 'copies' or 'copy' being referred to is only that of the original being left as is and copied for commercial use.

The original piece of software in ANY form is never given away... it is retained. Only copies of that are distributed. So while your thoughts are maybe driven by the word 'copy' it is not strictly correct in your application of it.

[westernwill]

Disagree with you there, Augustus.

 

They are discussing client-server software. The issue they are ruling on is not the copy of the software sitting on the server.

 

It is , for example, the acquired licence to distribute a further 25 client copies of that "copy" within the organisation. The question being that if the main user only requires 20 users can he sell on the remaining 5 client licences. Or if his number of users reduces sell on any surplus as long as he ensures they are not still in use.

 

That's my interpretation anyway.

[96RAF]

My opinion stands in that you sign up to any software installation and its particular and peculiar T's and C's read across despite any external suposed rights.

Rob

[MetmanUK]

My opinion stands in that you sign up to any software installation and its particular and peculiar T's and C's read across despite any external suposed rights.

Rob

Sorry Rob, on this point AC is unquestionably correct.  The law, whether EU or UK, trumps anything in T's& C's.

 

My link is for the original judgement but over the next year there is further clarification.  The licence is 'sold' to you therefore you have the right to resell it.  Despite what companies say, it is a 'sale'.

[westernwill]

metman

 

First point is that if you agree to restrictions then they are binding.

 

then even if what you say is true, the judgement also states that any new owner of the software is not entitled to any updates or any support. So pretty worthless really.

[MetmanUK]

metman

 

First point is that if you agree to restrictions then they are binding.

 

then even if what you say is true, the judgement also states that any new owner of the software is not entitled to any updates or any support. So pretty worthless really.

 

On the first point, if a restriction is against EU/UK law then it is unlawful and has no effect.  Therefore it is not binding.

 

Regarding updates and support, it depends whether you paid separately for them.  For RM you pay a single fee - you purchase the licence.  There is no fee for updates or support therefore if you purchase RM second hand then you have access to them.  The Oracle licensing is different.  You purchase the licence then pay an annual maintenance fee for updates and support.  In this situation you have a specific time-limited service which the judgement says is completely different.  You are correct that this means purchasing a second hand licence does not get you updates or support ...... unless you pay a fee.

 

It all seems logical to me but I have no expertise in this area !

[Fishmanoz]

So I purchase an eLink second hand and, as I know what I’m doing, I verify with the seller that although he activated RM, he has now deactivated it and gives me the key as part of the sale.  I use the key to activate the software which I have downloaded from the link.  At this point Hornby is none the wiser and I continue to use RM happily with updates being notified automatically and I continue to install them.  I decide to buy Pro and continue happily. 

 

Then an one day my HDD dies taking my activated RM with it.  I contact HRMS with my activation code and explanation and they ask for my details registered with the code. I don’t have them and they refuse me.

 

Question - will I take Hornby to court or will I buy a £5 CD from Hattons?

[Augustus Caesar]

@Fishy

 

Good question mate... but one thing is lost here with RM and its registration.

If you don't offer up the correct detail when you first registered RM with Hornby, and I not only talk of the license key but also the personal details, you cannot have the registration accepted. I have done that and given incorrect information, both unintentionally and by error I do add, along with a valid key and registration was refused.

Only when I realised what I had tried to register with did I figure my error and corrected it forthwith and consequently do have a working license.

So it's not just down to the key with Hornby and RM.

 

@Westernwill

 

I didn't mention server-client software nor software sitting on a server. I mentioned the software written by an author who retains that software until he wishes to relinquish his copyright to it and whether or not he wishes to issue licenses for its use by end users.

 

As we have looked at cases with differing companies here it really doesn't make a difference. If I buy software with a key and resell it later that new user IS entitled by EU law to reuse and reregister that same software regardless of what any T's & C's say and by whom they were written. EU and UK law, as MetmanUK agrees with myself, will outweigh any other agreement written in a room full of copyright magicians.

I can write ANY copyright notice I wish and put into whatever I like and test the legal waters and dumbfound any consumer with it until it is tested in a UK court or even afterward in an EU court. Once found guilty of not carrying out the correct procedures in law I would have a price to pay. Rightly so.

 

It doesn't matter how many licenses are bought and sold either. The whole question surrounds whether or not a piece of software that requires a license to use it can be legally resold to whoever wants it as a SECOND USER.

 

The original software is always going to remain with its author that is quite clear and he/she/they or whatever will ultimately own that software as the code is absolutely covered under copyright law. It is purely copies of that software that will be distributed to end users. If the ORIGINAL software (or the code for it) were sold to a second user then different laws are in place as this covers copyright and not licensing.

Now, if the author wishes to sell licenses to end users to use their software then that is OK and will require the user to pay for that license usually. If the user tires of the software, wants to upgrade it or just plainly wishes to resell then that is their perogative and no-one elses. The second user then buys that license and the use of the software. They do NOT buy the software itself... just the usage of it. Updates and upgrades are given out at the software vendor's wishes and are usually free. Yearly licenses will cover a different path and cannot be mixed up in this thread.

By the second user taking on the license the first user relinquishes ALL rights to use that software and MUST give the license key to the second user.

Law works on common sense and principles. The principle is the same for single and multiple licenses. We have to get away from who is involved in this case and simply look at the findings and rulings.

[ronp849]

A very interesting discussion but what is the conclusion in reality?

I have  a RM/eLink setup which I want to fit to my grandsons layout in New Zealand. To do this I will need to deregister my RM software in the UK and reregister it in their name in NZ.  The present licencing T&C will prohibit me from doing this - is there any chance of Hornby changing their policy or will they have to be 'persuaded' through the courts? Purchasing another copy is not an option at any price.

I have just had a look at the special offer from Hattons - the CD rom packaging states the software is 'Exclusive for the Elite'. Does this mean it is unsuitable for the eLink? Also Hattons are selling used copies  - how does licencing work with these?

Ron  

[RDS]

The offer from Hattons of RM software for £5 works equally well with either Elite or Elink.

I guess the reason it states for Elite is, that if you buy an Elink, you get RM with it, whereas the Elite is available on its own.

You say that a 2nd copy at any price is not an option but the £5 offer from Hattons is a fantastic offer.  There is no point in even considering a 2nd hand copy when an unopened one can be purchased for £5.

The best and cheapest solution for you is to buy RM from Hatton's.  Get your Grandson in New Zealand to download the RM evaluation version from the Hornby website.  Unwrap the RM CD from Hattons and email the code to your Grandson, which he then enters on his downloaded evaluation copy.  Doing this does not infringe any rules and ensures he has the latest version of RM.

 

Just to be clear, you cannot re-register RM in someone else's name.

[Chrissaf]

I have just had a look at the special offer from Hattons - the CD rom packaging states the software is 'Exclusive for the Elite'. Does this mean it is unsuitable for the eLink?

.

It is marketed as 'exclusive for the Elite' because you can't buy the eLink hardware (new) on its own. In this case it is just 'Marketing' speak, as one would normally only buy the RM software on its own for an Elite, given that eLink ships with it already. RM is exactly the same software whether used for eLink OR Elite. The Hattons £5 offer is brand new, never been used stock. They may very well be selling second hand eLinks, but AFAIK you are only buying the eLink hardware. With the exception where someone has returned an eLink / RM combo as being unregistered. Alternatively, It is possible that Hattons are bundling in a copy of their £5 RM with any second hand eLink they sell and including the £5 in the selling price, but this is not something I have actively researched. There are posts on this forum made by HRMS (Hornby RailMaster Support) that state that second (different name) user registrations are not supported within their licensing terms and conditions.

.

Are you really going to risk high court costs for the sake of £5 plus £2 delivery.

[WilliamDavid]

I say, give Hornby a break.

£5 for the key is fantastic value. I have three copies on three Linx tablet.

The one connected to the Elite and the layout, and has has PRO (again, great value)

The second, is connected to an Elink, and is used for setting the CVs (Elite programming doesn't work)

The third is used in comfort for setting up Railmaster loco list, etc.

For all its niggles, Railmaster is great value.

[WilliamDavid]

Is Peter's Spares having a funny moment.

They have the disc, Hornby R8144 RailMaster, for sale at £69.99 and say it is now dicontinued from the Hornby range???

I notice some silly prices from other retailers.

[Chrissaf]

I think the 'discontinuation' of RM in the R8144 product format is another reason why Hattons have it so cheap (shifting stock). It is also shown as effectively "not available for new supply" on the Hornby shop page as well. This in no way suggests that RM itself is going to be dumped as a product, just that it will only continue as part of eLink for the foreseeable future. This particular RM situation has been debated at length on the forum for about a year now, ever since Hattons announced the £5 offer price on the R8144 product.

.

Extract taken from the shop page

/media/tinymce_upload/7979282a6565ebd35025805fcb502d81.jpg

.

[WilliamDavid]

It puzzles me. R8144 is a funny product. You don't need it, you just want the Activation code. 

Why can't this be bought like the PRO and handheld features, on the app itself.

If someone wanted to purchase an Elite and Railmaster, it would be a bit unfair to make them buy an Elink as well.

[Chrissaf]

There is indeed a within application option to buy a license. Albeit at nearly the FULL list price though (only a £5 discount). It is the lack of a decent discount that makes the £5 Hattons version so much more attractive to buy.

.

See screen shot below from an installed version of the 1.66 Evaluation copy, download from the forum site and installed a few moments ago on my primary desktop PC in order to check the on-line purchase option being available in it.

.

Note the pop-up menu in the screen shot that tells me that my 90 day evaluation period has expired. I did have an earlier version installed on this particular PC as an evaluation copy many moons ago, which was subsequently 'uninstalled'. There must have been some remanent of the earlier installation still in the Windows registry for the installer to detect that 90 days had passed.

.

Note: this evaluation copy was not installed on my laptop PC containing my licensed copy of RM, else the downloaded installer would have just overwritten it.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/8248d4da8164a78f80d2d2d508994922.jpg

.