best points to use for dcc layout

[philandsue]

i am a very recent convert to the world of model railways - apart from the old set purchased in the 1960s. Spured on ny access to a medium size garden cabin and inspired by Great Model Railway challenge we are about to build our layout. my only real purchase so far is a Somerset belle set. I appreciate that this envisages an oval track - we would prefer an end to end layout - initially between two stations both with passing loops to facilitate 'proper' running of heritage steam line type trains.

I need to buy some track, in particular points. Reading various items on the web I was initially going towards electrofrog points - thinking the electrical contact sounded better. I have now read artiles that concern me about the extra work required to use them. I would really like to poerate, at least to start 'out of the box'. Do I stick with Hornby points or.... Thanks for your help.

 

[Chrissaf]

Electrofrog (PECO) points do work 'as is' out of the box. Optionally, their function and ongoing reliability can be extensively enhanced by performing the PECO documented modification for full switched Electrofrog power. The main (minor) issue with Electrofrog points is the need to fit in certain circumstances insulated rail joiners on the frog rails. This is the same requirement whether used out of the box 'as is' or with the full frog power switching modification. This means that more power feeds to the tracks are required else you end up with dead track sections due to the presence of the additional insulated rail joiners.

.

The advantages to running reliability (particularly slow running and short wheelbase locos electrical pickup) outweigh the extra wiring work required.

.

All my track is PECO and I opted to do the full power switched Electrofrog mods from the outset. Having now experienced the benefits of switched frog power, I would never go back to using 'insulfrogs' again.

.

If you posted an image of your proposed track plan. I could annotate it with where the insulated rail joiners and track power connections need to go and post the modified plan back in the thread. Follow the very bottom link below and read TIP 8 regarding how to post an image.

.

There is more information on PECO track & points in my reply posted earlier today in this thread.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/points-losing-power-29690/?p=3/#post-317684

.

TIP: As this is your very first post, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

.

See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

.

[jane1707819582]

My layout is all insulfrog points ,these can be problematic with the smaller 0-6-0 loco's stalling on the point . If I was starting again I would use electrofrogs .

[pendeenpete]

I can guarantee you will regret using insulfrog points in time, I did! If you are building a layout from scratch, the offer regarding wiring etc is worth looking at. I would also suggest third radius curves as your minimum,and medium points as the smallest you go with, lots of people have been tempted with the insulfrog ease of use idea, some remain happy with their decision,some don't.

You sound like you're going to have a lot of space for your layout, with my suggestions there shouldn't be any restrictions on what locos/rolling stock you buy.

[walkingthedog]

I have lots of insufrog points on my layout in the sidings. Hardly ever cause any problems. They are not Hornby, too much plastic.

[Bulleidboy]

All of my points are electrofrog with the modification, and insulated rail joiners where recommended - no problems at all.

[Flashbang]

While Electrofrog points are by far the best you need to be aware that NOT ALL Peco electrofrog point will work straight from the box without any modifications. 

The SL-E 99 Peco 3 way point must have some form of frog polarity switching to both frog employed. If left as 'from the box' it will have two dead sections within the point!

Next, Peco Streamline points (which their electrofrog point forms part of) are not a direct 'drop in' like for like  replacement for any Hornby or Peco Setrack points. Peco Streamline points (All SL-E or SL- range) are to a much larger footprint and turnout radius than any Hornby point. Plus when two same handed points are place together to form a crossover pair of points their natural straight parallel track spacing is much less than that produced by a pair of Hornby or Peco Setrack points doing the same crossover> To note.... Streamline produces a 50mm track to track centre line spacing while Hornby and Peco Setrack produce a 67mm track to track centre parallel line spacing.

 

All the above should be noted if you have or are planning to use Hornby or Peco Setrack sections as well as Peco Streamline.

 

Finally, my advice is when using any Electrofrog point is always to fit two Insulated Rail Joiners in place of the metal joiners onto the ends of the points Vee rails then add rail feeds after the IRJs of the correct polarity. By doing this you should never have any future problems should any track ever be altered and new feeds installed.    Of course if an electrofrog point feeds into a dead end siding and there is no rail feeds on the rails of that siding, the IRJ for that direction can be omitted, but then the siding would become the equivalent of being electrically dead when the point is not set towards that siding, this with DCC is not normally the method used, as all sidings are usually live allowing locos to move, sound to work and lights to function even with the point against that direction.

 

Brian

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk

[philandsue]

Thanks very much for your comments - will let you know our progress.

[Chris1970]

@Chrissaf

HI. You posted a reply to someone a while back and you mentioned you could help with where the insulating joiners and power connections go.

Wonder if you could help me .. ? Peco electro frogs being used, will have power feed from the 4 end sidings as such Ypres bottom set of points I’ve crossed out is not going ahead now . DCC LAYOUT

any help would be a massive help

thank you Chris

[Chrissaf]

@Chris1970

First of all, please ignore the PECO track part numbers I have used to build this scheme in SCARM. I am just trying to replicate your design and not trying to replicate how you would actually build it. If I was building this, I would be using PECO Flex track for all the straight sections. With one exception, and this exception assumes that you are using Code 100 Electrofrog points. The standard track spacing using PECO Electrofrog points is 50mm, Hornby rolling stock overhangs may foul with this spacing. Hornby spacing is 67mm to deal with overhangs. The lower part of my image shows a PECO ST202 Set Track Code 100 piece being used where points face each other. The inclusion of this track piece maintains the Hornby 67mm spacing. Note that the ST202 track piece has also been included in the top right siding.

This is how I would do it.

PECO Electrofrogs, in most situations, require the fitting of Insulated Rail Joiners on both the two rails that feed into the frog. These are indicated by the red stars on my schematic. This inevitably generates a lot of unpowered track sections in a layout. Therefore to resolve this conundrum, best engineering practice is to use a DCC BUS power distribution solution and provide power to all three input/outputs on the installed Electrofrog points. The brown and blue disks represent the connection point [soldered to track rails] for 7/0.2mm wire droppers that drop down through the baseboard to connect to the main BUS. It is important to keep these all the right way round as getting any one of these droppers wired in reverse will create a short circuit.

It now becomes clear, why Hornby have not made any attempt to adopt Electrofrog technology for their track system, due to the wiring complications. Hornby's policy is KISS [Keep It Simple S.......] when it comes to wiring, and 'Soldering' does not appear in Hornby's vocabulary.

Anyway, for what it is worth, here is my solution below. Others may disagree with certain aspects of it, but my solution [if implemented correctly without wiring error] will work. My solution also maintains DCC power on all dead end sidings which would allow any parked DCC locos to keep their lights or sound, if equipped with these features, operational.

To see a bigger version and assuming viewing on a Windows PC, right click the image and choose 'Open image in new tab' or any similar choice in your right click menu.

PS - This solution assumes that you ARE NOT using Frog Power Switching on the points. My solution is still compatible with Frog Power Switching, but the points themselves would need additional modifications which I have not documented in this reply.

[Chris1970]

Thank you so much for your help

Kind regards Chris

[Fishmanoz]

So Chris, what additional benefits if any will accrue from using frog switching?

[Chrissaf]

It completely eliminates any possibility of the wheels bridging the moving rails and a fixed rail of different DCC phase that results with a short.

When you use frog switching with PECO Electrofrogs, you cut the wire bridging links between the frog and the moving rails and the moving rails are bonded by newly installed wire links [as part of the PECO documented point modification] to their adjacent fixed rail.

This means that the moving rails are always of the same DCC phase to their adjacent fixed rail regardless of the point switched route status and it is the frog rails that change DCC phase independently instead.

However, with the Electrofrog point installed out of the box, both moving rails AND the frog rails are bonded together and electrically the same DCC phase, so they all change phase together when the point is switched to the DCC phase of the fixed rail the moving rail is making contact with. Whilst the other moving rail [which is not in contact with the other fixed rail] is of opposite phase to it. Therefore should a badly configured B2B or thick flanged wheel on older rolling stock bridge the gap between the moving and fixed rail, you get the short. Implementing 'Frog Switching' eliminates any possibility of this happening.

My description above is wonderfully demonstrated using interactive animated GIF images on the webpage linked below. Scroll down the page to the two colour coded Electrofrog images. If you click the toggle switch icon on the right hand side, the image changes to show what happens electrically to the rail polarities (DC) and phase (DCC). The top image labelled as 'DC Turnout' demonstrates an Electrofrog 'out of the box'. The lower image labelled 'DCC Friendly Turnout' demonstrates the PECO Electrofrog point with the full 'Frog Power Switching' modification implemented.

wiring model DCC points / turnouts

You can see how the moving rail phases are affected with the modified and non modified configurations when the switch is thrown.

PS - The third image further below the other two is also an animated GIF [click the toggle switch], but is more detailed to show all the additional frog wiring and switching. If you look closely you will see that the animation even moves the solenoid motor slug and the frog switch position indicator. It is very clever in its presentation.

Another benefit is because if the full PECO 'frog power switching' modification instructions are followed, the moving rails are bonded to their adjacent fixed rails via soldered wire links. The moving rails therefore have a more robust and reliable connection to DCC power, this is because power transfer to the moving rails is now not reliant upon the physical side of rail contact area of the moving and fixed rails. Thus the side of rail becoming dirty or grimy is now no longer an issue, only the tops of the rails need to be clean, just as per the rest of the track.

DO NOT install these moving rail to fixed rail links on PECO Electrofrog points as supplied 'out of the box' as this will generate an instant track 'short circuit'. The PECO documented soldered wire links have to be used in conjunction with the frog isolation part of the documented modification. This is also the reason why you should not use Hornby R8232 DCC Point Clips on PECO Electrofrog points as that too will generate a track 'short circuit'. Additionally, I would not advise fitting Hornby R8232 clips to ANY PECO point.

[Fishmanoz]

Thanks Chris, that’s the answer I was expecting. And I was hoping you’d give a link to one of those sites with lots of animated diagrams. They make things very clear.

PS. This is not the Chris and Fishy dog and pony show, you are still on the Hornby Forum. And yes, we are discussing non-Hornby products which overcome significant DCC shortcomings of the somewhat non-equivalent Hornby product.