Hornby's 2021 catalogue pre-orders with retailers

[SteveM6]

Plenty of ‘Hatton’s bashing’ going on but let’s look at it in a slightly different light.

Hattons is arguably the largest online retailer in the country and will undoubtedly get the lion’s share of orders. They then put in an order to Hornby to meet those preorders.

Hornby then tun round and say say, no you can’t have that many, we can only let you have x.

In those circumstances what are the guys at Hatton’s supposed to do?

I’m sure they accept the preorders in good faith but supply is not in their control. And I’m pretty sure they would rather fulfill all the preorders rather than have to cancel a proportion of them.

[atom3624]

Hattons basically find themselves up a certain Creek without a paddle!!

Lack of supply - call it support - from their provider, and obviously going to get flak from the general punter unceremoniously punted in the painful parts through no fault of their own, or Hattons ...

It may end up pushing Hattons into a corner they've already fought quite valiently out of before, producing their own merchandise ...

The future may be interesting.

Al.

[ColinB]

Plenty of ‘Hatton’s bashing’ going on but let’s look at it in a slightly different light.

Hattons is arguably the largest online retailer in the country and will undoubtedly get the lion’s share of orders. They then put in an order to Hornby to meet those preorders.

Hornby then tun round and say say, no you can’t have that many, we can only let you have x.

In those circumstances what are the guys at Hatton’s supposed to do?

I’m sure they accept the preorders in good faith but supply is not in their control. And I’m pretty sure they would rather fulfill all the preorders rather than have to cancel a proportion of them.

 

 

I for one have never said it was Hatton's fault, when they get an allocation they deliver. We all know where the fault lies. Some people seem to think Hattons over ordered, I doubt it otherwise why would have put up "sold on preorder" banners. Hornby management have probably been on a management course as to how to maximise resources, our management from time to time did. It usually ends in tears as reality strikes. 2022 could be a very interesting year for Hornby.

[Matthew-763196]

Lots of different views on this, but it seems to me that Hattons find themselves in the same or similar position as Rails did a year or so ago. Both firms will have been "disappointed" with Hornby's reaction to their respective planned own-manufactured models (Rails Terrier and Hattons Genesis coaches). The difference is that Rails came out and informed all customers immediately that they would henceforth no longer be a Hornby stockist, and no further pre-orders could be fulfilled.

Presumably it's more complicated for Hattons, especially as they are not a Bachmann stockist either.

I for one have used Hattons for ever and have always found them to be excellent and reliable, but I will certainly never pre-order any Hornby from them again under any circumstances.

[96RAF]

There was a recent announcement by AJM Railways explaining to their customers a banding/tiers system that has been introduced by Hornby whereby if a retailer produces goods in direct competition to Hornby or does not stock all their brands then they become Band 3 which effectively means they are last in the queue for pre-order sales.

Presumably as this was a public announcement by AJMR then it is based on truth, not speculation.

https://www.ajmrailways.com/?fbclid=IwAR22f2_LplLrR7Flb7g2rYfuE8FiUIS51PYPLmNkT6mtuuD85JTDFKH9kI0

Speculating - Maybe Hattons now falls into the third band retailer tier.

[atom3624]

Thanks Rob,

That seems to tie a lot of the pieces together.

Each have their own reasons doubtless, but the end result is less competitive availability to the customer.

Al.

[37lover]

96RAF,

Thanks for posting the link to AJM's announcement but there is no mention in that about "a retailer produces goods in direct competition to Hornby or does not stock all their brands", it only mentions a brick presence in the UK.

There has been an awful lot of presumption in some of the posts in this thread [which is perfectly okay].

My own thoughts are reflected in part of AJM's; simply that Suppliers assumed, or were given allocations, that were later reduced. Frustrating yes, but as many have acknowledged it seems to have distributed the pre-orders away from the Big Box-shifters and that is probably a good thing. 

[ColinB]

There was a recent announcement by AJM Railways explaining to their customers a banding/tiers system that has been introduced by Hornby whereby if a retailer produces goods in direct competition to Hornby or does not stock all their brands then they become Band 3 which effectively means they are last in the queue for pre-order sales..............

 

 

That is not going to last then. The motor industry got hauled over the coals for doing just that.

[96RAF]

@37L

This is the original FB post which does...

An Announcement from www.AJMRailways.com

Gentlemen and Customers

I will begin with 2 apologies, the first and most important being to my Customers (many of whom are members of this Group) in respect of the way recent events have and will affect my future ability to supply in the manner you have become used to and the second apology is for the time it has taken to convey this to you.

As some of you already know, Hornby decided to "Band" retailers back in January. Now 4 months later they have finally given explanation to why and how each account is banded. In this announcement, they describe Band 3 retailers such as AJM as "retailers who dont have a shop or if they do it may be of such a standard no one would want to visit it". Other criteria would include bad credit history, manufacturing competing products and not stocking the full range of Hornby Brands (eg Airfix etc). While it is good to have received such clarification the initial effects of the "banding" back in January started to be felt when pre orders placed in January were then "allocated" back to much lower numbers. Gradually since then the "allocations" became more and more severe and in the May announcement confirming the banding rationale, any account in Band 3 was immediately removed from any pre order capacity and all existing pre orders were cancelled. Band 3 retailers are now only able to order "in stock" items and not future releases. So for example if a loco is released this week then Band 1 and 2 will receive theirs and if stock remains not allocated to the Hornby website then Band 3 customers can place orders a few days later

I have enjoyed building a business this past 12 years and having a great relationship with customers all over the globe and initially this whole situation hit me severely both physically and mentally. However, it also made me realise the old addage "life is too short" and as such, after discussion with another well known retailer here in the UK, I decided to sell all my OO scale Rolling Stock in a deal that concluded last week. While I was sad to see this happening it also made me realise the net value of the stock was much higher than I had ever envisaged and as such, I can afford to take this all on the chin and not be too worried about it from a "selfish" perspective. 

However just as the hobby is in the veins of my customers, supplying them is embedded in mine. My thoughts are to continue the AJM site offering the remaining OO ranges like Train Tech, Oxford Diecast, as well as the existing HO ranges like Faller, Noch, Prieser etc which serve both HO modellers and have some commonality with OO modellers. Similarly the "non scale" items like Block Signalling, Loksound, DCC decoders and Hornby and Peco track and points will still be available on the site.

With regards to the other OO manufacturers (Dapol, Heljan, Bachmann, Accurascale and soon, Rapido Trains), my thoughts are to take all their future locos and offer them on the AJM site with each new loco being available for 8 weeks (or longer if a Customer says he wants one but asks for it to be held for him). After that I will delist the locos and set them for sale in the UK only as having thinned out my stock holdings I really am not inclined, at my age, to build it back up again. Should this suit my Customers I will continue to do this?

With regards to Hornby, for as long as they are happy to allow me to have an account (and this is totally in their control), I am happy to continue to offer their available new locos again on an 8 week rolling basis. Any loco listed will be in stock with me already and I cannot take pre orders for new releases until after they are offered to Band 1 and 2 accounts as set out above. I appreciate this does mean that some locos eg Hush Hush are unlikely to be available via AJM at all. 

Dealing with Coaches and Rolling stock I do not propose to get back into this to the extent of holding vast quantities of stock for many years into the future, so am happy for any Customer to simply ping me an email with the stock codes and quantities and I can see if I can supply this order on a bespoke basis at my usual competitive prices and shipping. This will apply to all manufacturers coaches and wagons in OO scale and not to future releases as I seek to maintain a good service but avoid holding vast stock in the future.

I appreciate that this scenario of future orders will not suit all Customers and to them I can only apologise and wish them well in the future and thank them for their past Custom

For Customers who are "happy to give AJM a try" in the future I again thank you and hope that I can offer you a good service with prompt replies and a reasonable level of successful outcomes on their inquiries

As the saying goes "every cloud has a silver lining" and my initial upset and fears etc are now a distant memory as I know whatever happens I cannot be affected by the decisions of others beyond my control and regardless of their motivations. Any sadness is only to my Customers whom I may loose or who themselves are unable to get the items they require or at least in a manner that is affordable to them

Thank you for taking the time to read this and again to all my Customers both in this Group and globally I can only say I hope you enjoy your layouts .. who knows .. I may even now have time to build a layout myself!

Best Wishes

Amanda

[37lover]

96RAF,

Many thanks for posting the full version.

[Bulleidboy]

I agree with 37lover - a useful post.

Flicking through the "Catalogue" category on the dashboard on the Hornby Home page, under "Steam Locomotives" - a number of yet to be released loco's are described as "Unavailable". On another forum this has been explained as Hornby having sold out of their own allocation of the model. It could be described a little more clearly, even if it said "Pre-order allocation sold-out" rather than just "Unavailable".

For clarity - Hornby site definitions:

1. Pre-order for Winter 20/21 - or whenever.
2. In stock
3. Out of Stock
4. Unavailable

So if you are after a model that shows "Unavailable" on the Hornby site, it might be best to check with other retailers - obviously there is no guarantee they will get their full pre-order allocation.

[ColinB]

Hopefully when life gets back to normal, reality will begin to grip Hornby. This year sees a lot of models people want, I am not sure that they will be able to continue that for ever. There are only so many repainted and renumbered locos that people want. I was comparing the previous Princess Elizabeth model with the retooled current one ( I got it cheap off Amazon) and yes the new one is much better, but not that much better. The important thing is that they redesigned the front bogie which stops it derailing over points, so all I did was retrofit all my old ones with the new bogie ( you do need to drill a new hole and in my case tap it).

[96RAF]

Hot topic on RM Web forum, now the Tier system has been put in the public domain by Hornby...

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/164872-hornby-model-shop-tiers-system/

[Bulleidboy]

A very interesting read - answers a number of recurring questions.

[VESPA]

I have always been against pre ordering but in the end it appeared the only way to get what you wanted. I have cancelled all outstanding preorders with one exception, the Hush Hush and that is with Hornby. Hattons and Rails with a few others used to do special runs with Hornby and Bachmann etc but now they are missing out the "middle man" and manufacuring from Chinese factories themselves. I can understand fully why Hornby and Bachmann have taken the actions that they have done. The smaller retailer will now have a better chance. Hattons have changed so much since Keith Hatton tragically died and are once again selling secondhand. Even that has become a bit bone idle with items photographed in the box so that you cannot see the state of many boxed items. I have noticed that there seems to be a lot of new low stock items appearing from Bachmann on their site. I assume that these are from old stock hanging around or shop clearances of other retailers. Their shop still remains closed to visit and mail order only is the trading method. I think generally many retailers will fold and shut down. tha will not do any good for railway modelling, especially with prices rocketing all the time. China trades in US dollars and the £ v $ has given the £ and icrease in value against the dollar of around 20p+ but prices still go up every time a new item appears.

[ColinB]

There was article in one of the "on line" news pages just after Christmas saying that the cost of Shipping had gone up considerably. Plus there is the point that the cost of living in China is rising, plus the raw materials. Hornby don't manufacture large numbers of one product, so production will be expensive. China is really cheap where you are making millions of a product. Then you have to add in that 10% failure rate is accepted by the Chinese as normal. That is probably why the cost of the locos keep rising, although I must admit from my point of view they are probably getting near to the affordable limit. I did read also that some smaller firms were pulling their production back to the UK, as the China dream of cheap rates didn't always materialise. Hornby though are too far down that road, so all they can do is increase the price and hope people will still buy their product. Just remember one human rights trade embargo and your business is up in smoke.

[96RAF]

Going off piste a tad to follow up on a comment that Colin made about the cost of Chinese goods.

I have bought many things from China and cannot get my head round how they can offer stuff at the prices they do, many with free or low P&P. When I see the actual postage cost on the packaging it can be almost as much as I paid in toto, so how do these people actually make a living.

Also many agencies like Ali-Express require you to confirm receipt of goods before the supplier get paid - crazy. Example - I am waiting for some jack plugs for which I paid a total of £3.02 for 10, when Amazon are flogging them for more than that each.

[Bulleidboy]

Following on from both Colin and Robs posts, I will never understand how any profits are made or the profits are so low you wonder if it was worth the trouble.

In 2011 I bought Hornby R2898XS Schools Class St Pauls - this was, as with other loco's one of the first with sound, and supposedly "proper" sound with Loksound decoders. This loco's RRP (I have the Hornby price list) was £234.99 - I bought from Hattons for £129.00 - that is a 45% discount. In 2013 I added R3130XS Holland Afrika Line to the collection - RRP £269.99 - I paid MRD £205.00 - now that is only a 24% reduction.

I expect a Hornby "bean-counter" could tell you the actual production cost per item. If you went into a shop today expecting to pay £270 for something, and they said we can knock £65 of that price - you would bite the salesmans hand off.

[96RAF]

I fancied an auto-coach in my local model shop, but it was pricey (Bachmann model) so I was undecided. They said will you buy it if we match Hattons’ price, so I bought it with that extra discount. They do the same with Hornby and other makes.

[SteveM6]

The subject of ‘tiers’ has made it to the Facebook page of the Hornby Magazine.

95 comments, none positive.

[atom3624]

I suppose leaving people who have created a living, but also helped sell a huge number of your products in total limbo, and losing loads of potential customers is not a great way to 'have a nice day'.

They need a serious rethink, and if its not too late, a serious 'sit down and talk' with major movers like Hattons and Rails - if they're still interested.

Al.

[HornbyKiwi]

I had four items on pre-order with Hattons before "The Great Cancelling", nothing particularly exciting, just items that appealed to me. I've dealt with Hattons, Rails, Kernow, AJM and Hornby themselves during the past 10 years. As an international customer, things like freight costs are an important and sensitive consideration for me.

As mentioned earlier, Hattons are the UK's largest online retailer and, by extention, probably the biggest dealer in UK outline models in the world. No doubt they have been able to negotiate great shipping rates with Royal Mail due to the volume they send out the door. Their Trunk system has also been of huge benefit to me around preorders ... well, it would have been for the four items I wanted due to them having four separate release dates.

Hornby may want to take back some of the online market for various reasons, probably most importantly to improve their own financial position and strengthen the business. But, they price themselves out of any serious consideration due to the exorbitant charges for international shipping. For example, one of the four items I had on preorder was the Xmas wagon, which I buy every year for the fun of it. I'm sorry but I'm not going to pay 15-16-17 pounds for the wagon then be charged 35 pounds for international shipping. It's ridiculous!

If I want free shipping, I'm looking at having to purchase 250 pounds of products I think. That's assuming they can supply all the items at one time. Taking my four preorders with Hattons, four different release dates from Hornby means I would be looking at 35 pounds times four as they don't combine or hold items on preorder to send in one go.

Whatever way you look at it, Hornby Direct are just not competitive to international customers. Their shipping structure is reminescent of the 1970's when you would be mail-ordering off the back page of a magazine. I appreciate Hornby might want to capture a bigger slice of the online selling pie, but it's not going to happen for their international market at least I don't believe.

As for the four items I wanted, I haven't bothered to look elsewhere to secure preorders at a reasonable price for them. As I said earlier, they were impulse orders, nothing particularly high profile from their 2021 catalogue by any means. So Hornby have lost 4 sales to me ultimately. Perhaps those items will be sold to another hobbiest, perhaps not. Only time will tell if this has been a serious mis-step by Hornby. But I'm certainly disappointed by this turn of events to be sure.

HK.

[LTSR_NSE]

Unfortunately for Hattons (and Rails - although their crystal ball was possibly clearer) this whole ‘tier’ introduction suggests 3 simple things to me...

• Hornby have decided that they want this website (and their amazon store) to be the only major movers from now on.

• Hornby are willing to have a business relationship with small high-street model shops (that cater for customers who still prefer physical shops) - but they are more interested in those shops that depend upon Hornby, and less interested in the independently successful ones.

• In my opinion the only plausible explanation for creating uncertainty over pre-orders, is to ‘push’ customers into ordering directly here.

(If customers believe the only way to guarantee the next ‘must-have’ is to pay full-price, Hornby’s profits increase. Those who imagine that a significant proportion of customers will balk at that, need to consider how the strategy of limiting retailer discounts has played out!)

Finally to distance myself from anyone who wishes people or companies ill: (this comment is based upon RMWeb thread not this one!)

I hope that this strategy proves beneficial to both Hornby & their customers. I also hope that all retailers manage to navigate this change successfully and profitably.

However this feels very much like a profitable short-term strategy and a less certain long-term one. I fervently hope to be proved wrong! slightly_smiling_face

[Peter-737590]

I have just read about the new retailer tiers in Hornby Magazine. Some time ago another major brand ceased to supply one of the top 3 model shops and since then I have not bought one single item from said brand's range. Hornby has done the same thing with another of the big three model shops. The last of the big three is an excellent shop from which I have bought plenty and received top notch service but certainly doesn't meet all the criteria for tier 1. So Hornby products are about to get even more difficult to obtain. I will not be told where to shop by a manufacturer and if Hornby is going to start picking the model shops it supplies, I am going to start picking the brands I buy. This really seems like a monumental own goal and a black mark against the brand. Whatever the reasons and thinking, someone appears to have left out the word customer.

[ellocoloco]

'I will not be told where to shop by a manufacturer'

Anyone who buys a new car will be buying it a manufacturer approved and specified retailer, whats the big deal. This has been going on for ages.

Whats surprising is Hornby didn't implement this earlier.