Another move

[Brew Man]

After waiting what seems like an interminable length of time to set my layout back in position after room decorating, it seems like it might be short lived. We have decided to have the loft boarded and I'll be sent packing up there with my railway. But the good news is, there'll be room for a much bigger layout.

So from a modest 6'6" x 4' there should be room for 10' x 6' or even 12' x 6', I'll have to wait and see what I can fit in. What I'm wondering is, whether 2 x 1 timber will be adequate for the sub-frame or would something sturdier be advisable?

Another factor is, how cold it might get up there in the winter.

[Bulleidboy]

If your loft is like many - not enough insulation - it will be freezing in the winter and like an oven in the summer.

[ColinB]

Yes, exactly and you seriously have to worry about the gaps in rails.

[Brew Man]

Yes, there is all that. There is plenty of insulation, the only trouble is, it will be all under foot sleepy. I suppose I could try Kingspan between the roof beams. I guess it might not be too bad as where I live doesn't often suffer from extremes in weather.

But what about thickness of timber for the sub-frame?

[Brew Man]

Yes, exactly and you seriously have to worry about the gaps in rails.

 

 

I'm not sure how much I need to worry about rail contraction in the loft in winter. I just placed a Hornby standard straight in the freezer for five hours.

Result:

Pre-freezer length = 16.75cm

Post-freezer length = 16.75cm

I'll keep it in there until tomorrow and see what, if anything changes.

[Yelrow]

To answer your question, 2x1 will be fine for baseboard, with 2x2 legs.

[37lover]

Size of timber needs to be in relation to spacing; 2x1 at 4ft centres is no go, 2x1 at 1ft centres is, I suspect, overkill. I am not suitably experienced to advise. To some degree it is all also related to the baseboard material.

[Howbi]

You would be well advised to get advice from a Builder concerning the size of the ceiling joists you would be walking on as they are not designed to carry any load. Also means of escape in case of emergency........HB

[Brew Man]

Thank you, chaps. 2 x 1 should be fine then. I can spend the extra cash on more insulation grinning

[Jimbo1707820979]

Very important you get your roof insulated, preferably between roof tiles and boarding (if any). Otherwise you will hate being up there. I live in Bournmouth and my loft gets torrid or freezing even though insulated underfoot. So no layout up there. Don't fancy being Santa Klaus.

As to baseboard underframing, 2x1 timber quite adequate if supported every 15inches- or 18 inches if harder 'softwood'. Screwed and wood-glued. Preferably countersink the screw heads. (JJ please note. ha-ha)

[Brew Man]

@howbi

What we're getting is a suspended floor, so it will be clear of the ceiling joists. Some friends of ours had it done recently and you can jump up and down on it. Spectacular job.

[Brew Man]

@Jimbo

Yes, underfoot insulation is no benefit at all in the loft space. Of course iot's all theoretical at the moment. I'll have to wait until the loft boarding is done before I can see what I'm working with. If it is a goer then I think I will need extra insulation between the roof timbers.

[Jimbo1707820979]

@BM Wise move. Meanwhile you could take some readings in your loft with a small thermometer to judge what you are up against. Very awkward to have work done on your boarding/insulation if you already have a nice layout installed. Also the question of lighting.

[Brew Man]

Lighting shouldn't be a problem as the job includes a light and switch. If I need more I can always add other lights to the same spur. As regards having the work done with a layout already in place, we're having the work done any way to allow more storage space, so it won't be a wasted effort.

[Paulali]

I would use a product called cellotex between your roof timbers, warm in the winter and cuts out a lot ofvthecheat in the summer

[morairamike]

You could put insulation like cellotex between the roof trusses. Once you reach a point where the height between ceiling joists and trusses is two low to use then put a vertical wall of cellotex. This will give a self contained area in the roof for your railway. The area under what will be the floor could have the insulation removed so that some heat raised into your space to keep it warm in winter. A small oil filled heater would work in the winter. The space between the loft hatch and your layout could have a thermal curtain to close it off.

The area outside your train area increase the insulation in that area with rockwool insulation. Install a smoke alarm that triggers one in the normal house area.

[Paulali]

I would use a product called cellotex between your roof timbers, warm in the winter and cuts out a lot of the heat in the summer

[Brew Man]

I just pulled the piece of track out of the freezer, so it's been in there for four days.

So, original measurement before it went in = 16.75cm

Measurement now after four days in the freezer = 16.75.

I think I can happily say I am not worried about winter in the loft - at least from the aspect of gaps in the rails.

[atom3624]

I think your freezer's not working!

Joking aside, interesting little study.

I suppose another would be to place it in hot water - say 50-60'C - for an hour, not 4 days!

Al.

[Yelrow]

There is an awful amount of doom and gloom talked about layouts in lofts and heat expansion. Here in rural France temp in summer in our loft reaches 35, regularly from June through September. My layouts have been there for. 15 years, both flexi and normal track, and I have never had a single problem. Locos stay on track, all summer. Provided you allow for expansion, when laying, you will not need to worry. As for insulation, I have 4 inch fibreglass across the lowered ceiling, from which there is about 4 foot to the eves, down to 18 inches each side of roof. A special roll of plastic sheeting has been pinned across joints under tiles. Very Expensive, but protects interior..

[Brew Man]

I think your freezer's not working!

Joking aside, interesting little study.

I suppose another would be to place it in hot water - say 50-60'C - for an hour, not 4 days!

Al.

 

 

Yes, I should do that for completeness. good idea.

[Brew Man]

Part two:

Water heated in a pan to just under 70C

One piece of Hornby standard straight track submerged in heated water for approximately 45 mins

Temperature of water at 45 mins = 44C

Result:

Length of track at RT = 16.75cm

Length of track after 45 mins of submersion = 16.75cm

I'm satisfied!

[threelink]

I appreciate the scientific approach to your experiments, BM, but expansion is nonetheless a factor to take into account. I made a small 00 layout for use by children. Admittedly, some of the curves were tight radius but it worked fine in the house. After half an hour in the sunshine outside, two of the curves went out of gauge because the rails had expanded in the sun's heat, causing derailments. Expansion gaps are a necessity.

[Rog RJ]

The expansion of the baseboard that the track is laid on must also be considered.

I have no idea how much plywood, chipboard, MDF or any other wood expands and contracts with heat and humidity but if there is a difference between the baseboard and the track, assuming the track is firmly fixed to the baseboard, it needs to be allowed for.

[Brew Man]

I will have to see what happens. I think small gaps in the rails of about a mm are inevitable from the outset. However, the results I got are indisputable. Perhaps Al is right, maybe my freezer isn't working, and maybe my hot water isn't either joy