Electrical connections

[Out Of Puff1707822593]

Hi all, I'm still working out how to get my DCC layout working more smoothly in terms of electrics. I have problems with odd stalls, occasional short circuits (ie nothing works until I take all the locos off the track and power the Select controller on and off again), and regular refusals to go over the diamond crossing. I'm not keen to go down the soldering / bus route if at all possible.

I've shown the layout in this diagram, with the two marked areas representing the DCC power track, and the link connector.

Any thoughts on the following would be much appreciated;

1. Would the Hornby P93000 4A transformer help the general running on my track?
2. Should I always expect some stalling on the diamond crossing R614 because it has a dead zone right in the middle of it?
3. Can I get away with any further expansion with my current power setup (eg more sidings)?

Thanks so much for any views.

[RDS]

1. The 4A transformer will give you the opportunity to run more Loco's rather than help with general running.
2. I stopped using my diamond crossing because of exactly the reason you describe, as it always caused problems with smaller Loco's. Large Loco's (Diesels or Steam) were always fine because of the extra pickups.
3. I have now added a Bus and Droppers around my layout but I had successfully run a similar layout to yours but with 4 loops and sidings coming in from top right to the bottom left, with only 1 DCC connection in the same place as you have your connection.

If you don't want to get involved with Soldering or a Bus, you could always fit extra power connections at other positions but great care must be taken to ensure you do not create a short circuit by cross connecting them.

Soldering will always give better results though.

[Brew Man]

I think RDS is right about soldering. I'm just in the process of installing a bus and droppers to my layout. Having run my previous two layouts from a single power feed, I think soldered connections, although tedious to do is a no-brainer.

[Chrissaf]

I can't add anything more useful to RDS's reply. He has covered all the salient points. Just to reiterate, increasing the current available from 1 to 4 amps does not improve the reliability of power transfer through the layout, more current just allows more locos to be supported concurrently.

Hornby track was not been significantly updated in decades and the plastic frog areas are oversized compared to other track brands. I would always advocate a BUS distribution installation for DCC, but the Hornby frogs will still end up being the weak link in the chain, that a BUS distribution system is unlikely to improve or resolve.

[96RAF]

Make sure the points and diamond are dead flat by use of extra track pins in the middle after having drilled the sleepers to suit.

As wired you may lose track power in various places when you change a siding point.

I successfully wired a multi-loop and sidings temp layout by use power tracks and track clips fitted at several places between the loops and this worked fine for the testing period. Just be careful you get the rail to rail connections correct to avoid shorts.

See Chris excellent guide to Track Extensions in the General Discussion section which covers loop to loop wiring, etc for best effect.

[Chrissaf]

I assume that you have fitted Hornby R8232 DCC Point Power Clips to all your points?

If you haven't, then you need to....

Check out FAQ number 4 in the 'General Discussion FAQ Index' sticky thread. There is always a possibility that you have one or more faulty points. I would test all your points (see FAQ 4 for testing process), if only to eliminate them from being a possible layout issue.

[morairamike]

My first DCC layout was plagued with power problems, I used power clips, diamond crossings and relied on fishplates and point clips to transfer power.

I moved my layout into a bigger room and started again from scratch. This time from the off a track power buss, radiating in two directions from the controller to the access flap. Every piece of track is connected to the power buss so fishplates only keep the track together, and are not the prime power transfer medium. Both halves have snubbers. I changed from isol points to electro frog points, using a home designed control box to activate them. I also opted for SEEP motors with auxiliary contacts to switch the frog polarity. All worked well for 2 years, then I started to have problems with frog switching and investigation showed that the contacts had worn or were out of alignment. My solution which is being incorporated this weekend, uses switching relays, triggered by the control box to switch frog polarity. 10 of my 14 points are now sorted 4 more to do.

So my advice. Use a buss, use electro points, use separate relays or switches to switch the frog polarity.

A side benefit from this update is I've found why one combination of 3 points left the associated light signals blank. I hadn't built the required diode diode relay network leg into the original set up. Now corrected.

[Dukedog.]

sorry to hi jack this thread but what package was used for the layout drawing

thank you

[Out Of Puff1707822593]

Thanks so much everyone, that is most helpful. I've already taken out the diamond crossing today and it works better already!

I realise that soldering and a BUS system are optimal - I probably won't do it for now, mostly due to time demands. I'll just tinker to make it work as best I can. But it's good to know where to look if and when the time comes...

I do have the Power Clips - thanks - but I like the suggestion to check my points, which I will.

The software is RailModeller Pro. I'm using it on a Mac and it has a PC version as well. There is a free demo version but you may not be able to complete a full layout on it. It works better that the trial and error method of fitting track that I used before (and so probably saves me money with track as well!)

PS One quick question - how do you power extra DCC Power Tracks - presumably my Select controller will only power one?

[Flashbang]

IMO morairamike has hit the proverbial nail on the head with their comments.

Its 100% correct, as any Insulated frog point, regardless of make, can cause running problems and by moving to Electrofrog points (not sold by Hornby!) and adding a DCC power bus pair of two wires and droppers connecting the Bus to the rails above, can only improve running by 100%. It is basically "Best Practice" which has been advocated by many modellers for years!

Reliance on power clips and conversion of Insulated frog point (Hornby ones) by adding 'staples' - Point Clips is considered to be a poor way of improving DCC power and date transmission rail to rail. The track is still relying on each metal rail joiner (fishplate) passing power, and data on DCC, rail to rail. These rail joiners are always the "Weak Link" in the distribution system around the layout. In fact fishplates should really only be used to connect the abutting rails and not be relied upon to pass power and data!

Best practice on a permanent DCC layout has dropper wires connecting to every piece of tracks rails to the Bus pair. Points outer stock rails too!

Diamond crossings do not need Hornby point clips, neither any special wiring, as basically they are two straight through tracks crossing each other, but the Hornby versions do suffer from excessive plastic in the frog area! Which can cause stalling or stuttering.

Point clips are only suitable IMO on non permanent layouts, where track design may change or the track has to be lifted and relaid frequently. But where the layouts track plan is considered to be OK and permanent, then seriously consider adding a DCC bus pair of wires and smaller wire size dropper wires Bus to rail.

What wire size? For the DCC bus pair, consider 32/0.2mm flexible wire (17AWG) for the Bus or use a larger wire size on large layouts or where the bus wires length exceeds around 5 Mtrs. For Droppers and if fitted to every track section, then use 7/0.2mm (24AWG) but no longer than 400mm rail to bus wire. Where droppers are not fitted to every section of track then use 16/0.2mm (20AWG) flexible wire. All dropper wires are soldered to the rails. At the bus connection, twisting and soldering is best, but other means of connection can be used, such as screw terminal blocks, Wago 221 terminals or even Scotchlok connectors of the correct colour/size for the wires being connected.

Best practice wiring can only be considered exactly as that!!

[Chrissaf]

PS One quick question - how do you power extra DCC Power Tracks - presumably my Select controller will only power one?

 

 

Flashbang has provided "best engineering practice" advice which I wholeheartedly support. But to answer your question as written.

Make you own star wiring harness using Hornby X8011 terminals to provide the connection to the track connectors (these have to be R8242 and not R602 or R8206 or R8201) any general purpose wire will do. Many use figure 8 speaker wire. Use any convenient method whether that be soldering or strip terminals to connect the stars together in parallel so that they concentrate into a single pair for connection to the Select. Get ANY one of those star wiring feeds the wrong way round and you will create an instant short circuit.

[96RAF]

To answer your question - how do I get to power my extra loops as the Select will only power one - with DCC you make the whole layout into one loop by using the various wiring methods described by others.

[Fishmanoz]

Three answers:

1. Depending on loco types and how many you are running at the same time. You should be able to run up to 4 from 1 Amp but not if older locos or all sound. Easy to tell - if the Select overloads regularly, you may need the 4 Amp.
2. Not if it is perfectly flat. Check with a straight edge on the rail tops. Use a track pin in the centre to adjust if laid permanently
3. Rob’s wiring methods are either DCC point clips on all points or a track bus.

[Out Of Puff1707822593]

Thank you so much everyone!