Another price increase?

[Bulleidboy]

If you pre-ordered when the model was announced (as many do), you could be shooting yourself in the foot by now cancelling your pre-order now. Hornby in the past have always honoured the price stated at the time the order was made. As I mentioned elsewhere the Club Exclusive Standard 2MT was originally priced at £149.99 (and I have emailed confirmation of the order) - these models are now priced from £215 upwards. I await the outcome with a degree of trepidationhushed

[ColinB]

I know Bulleidboy, I suspect though the cancelled orders are with Retailers rather than Hornby. I do wonder though how long it is before Hornby stops honouring the price being the difference in price when pre ordered and now it is so large. At 10% we know from Retailer discounts that is not an issue to them, but now on say the P2 Prince of Wales I pre ordered, that will be 20% which will be a lot of money.

[XJR1300]

@ColinB From what I've been reading Hornby are cutting off the well known retailers who offer good discount. This would appear to be an attempt to control supply and therefore fix or increase prices as they see fit. Something that may work in the short term, Hornby relaying on the older loyal fan base with expandable income. But long term they'll burn their bridges with retailers, those on smaller budgets and new younger enthusiasts, who are Hornby's future loyal fan base.

Sadly it's just all short term greed as ever.

[VESPA]

I have always thought a lot of these daft prices are driven by the likes of Rails and Hattons doing their own models either direct with a Chinese company or via Dapol and Heljan. Rails are now getting out very expensive "oddball" one offs and most are preorders with a £30 deposit. The NRM in conjunction with Rails are also doing models of their full size items (and have been for a while). The prices have always been at a premium and in excess of general makers such as Hornby and Bachmann. Yes, I know Bachmann did specials and so did Hornby but without silly mark ups. I for one have now close my wallet to any new items from any maker. Old and grey and not a bottomless moneypit. It's funny how Hattons has been dropped from Bachmann supply and Rails have been dropped from from Hornby supply. The latter because of a dispute over the Terrier tank locos. Looking at some prices now it will soon be cheaper to buy a new car.

[The son of Triangman]

Prices have increased massively across all sections of industry, Hornby like other manufacturers have most likely carried the increases as long as possible, but you can't do that forever, there comes a point when it has to be passed onto the customer.

Model prices aren't being driven by major retailers making their own models. There is a massive shortage on IC's and other semi-conductors such as LED's etc, and prices have gone beserk, plastic prices have sky rocketed, labour costs have gone up in China, energy prices have gone sky high and are set to rise again, it all affects the retail price of models. Covid 19 has had a massive effect as has home working.

For one of my products I used to pay £5.73 for 1000 5mm Yellow High brightness intensity LED's, they are now £167.04 for 1000.

[ColinB]

@The son of Triangman 20% in six months? I get 10%, then there is the point "will there be a market left at those new prices", even Rails "specials" are cheaper. Long term we will see.

[The son of Triangman]

Prices have gone crazy out there, Colin. I am expecting another materials cost price rise in the next couple of months. Prices of materials and electronic components are still rising.

[XJR1300]

@The son of Triangman

I agree to a point, there is much evidence of corporations and larger companies just cashing in, i.e stock they already hold being hiked and controlling of it to market, to increase it's value. There's a lot of evidence of wholesale price reductions not being passed on or reflected in retail prices, it very easy profit. A fair few are making more money than ever and Covid has been a blessing and a very convenient excuse.

I've got little sympathy for these types, sadly greed takes over.

[The son of Triangman]

I think Hornby have been pretty fair given the current world situation. Good quality 555 timer ic's used in a lot of products have gone berserk in price for example, I used to buy them pre-covid for 1p each per 1000, now they are 22p each per 1000. The big corporations are cashing in, and model making companies and other companies are suffering from the material price hikes. A friend has a little metal shop making and repairing all sorts of stuff, his material prices have more than doubled since the pandemic. Price cuts aren't being passed onto the model manufacturers and other companies by the big material suppliers.

[The son of Triangman]

I'm not a fan of China made Hornby, there are failings with quality and lack of spares, but that said Hornby needs our support right now, they have made a loss which given their business model which is sound, says a lot of the world situation. They have most likely held prices as long as they can. They deserve our support more than ever now.

[ColinB]

Yes, but if your price is too high, you won't sell your product. I am surprised you could get a 555 for 1 pence, they were significantly more expensive than that when I bought them. Even at 22 pence I find that quite cheap. Either way it doesn't matter, if you raise your prices where your customer cannot afford your product anymore, the effect is the same.

[The son of Triangman]

I agree Colin, there comes a point at which you can price yourself out of the market. They were a good regular bulk buy supply, I am shocked by how things have gone up across the board.

[XJR1300]

@ColinB You've hit the nail on the head. Ultimately if customers can't afford, or won't buy due to quality, supply and customer service issues, you go bust.

Something that brought Hornby/Airfix/Revell, down in the past, huge ranges 70-90's that rested on it's laurels. Others, mainly Japanese's at the time later Chinese produced kits, far higher quality, Tamiya even cost more about 25% more in the 70's. But it was streets ahead in every aspect, what did Airfix do? Next to nothing, the backers didn't want to invest just take. Exactly the same for British bike industry at the same time.

Sad but true, no vision just quick profit i.e. greed

[Fazy]

It is not Hornby’s fault, if you think it is wait till the new gas rates come through, expect to be 50% up from what your paying now. And that’s just the beginning!

I think 20% rise on a toy train is going to be the least of people worry’s.

I would like to think those that are going to be priced out of the Hobby would be able to buy from the likes of eBay,

But the laws of supply and demand along with some degree of greed will just put up the prices for the second hand market. 5 to 10 years ago I use to buy scrapers 5 blk5 chassis for £5, bodies for £5 to £10 and that’s how I built up my black5 Scot’s etc. I spent no more then £300 total 5 Blk5 3scots 3reblt pats.

Now I’ve seen bodies going £50 damaged! Chassis £60-70 it’s people trying to cash in and newbes buying what they want at any price which is killing of the hobby!

Not the manufacturer which have their hands tied with the balance of production cost and customer demands.

[ColinB]

It is Hornby's fault, lack of forward thinking, outsourcing only works when there is a glut of services. As to the gas, one of the reasons for that is the fact that many countries are chasing a finite supply. I don't want to get into politics but countries are trying to reduce their carbon footprint so coal is out, renewables don't generate enough power so everyone goes for gas as it is relatively clean. I can live without my hobby, I doubt I can without gas, so it doesn't really matter what gas costs you are going to need it. As to the second hand market, I regularly build locos out of bits and yes I have noticed some of the parts go up in price, but as a regular watcher of EBay I also notice those Dealers with the high prices still have the parts several months later. Most people have a budget which is all they will spend unless it is special.

[Fazy]

No I didn’t want to get into politics, what I was trying to get at is fuel costs have gone up. Which is hitting every body and every thing. As such it’s affecting the costs of manufacturing multiple times, from production to transport so once it’s all added it’s adding to the final price.

As for its Hornbys fault we will have to disagree on that point to some degree.

[XJR1300]

@Fazy The same tactics are being used in all markets, supply and demand is just an excuse for oil, gas and raw material producers. Pre and post Covid the same amount of oil/gas and material will be used, we haven't doubled the population or the amount of manufacturing plants and the supply infrastructure hasn't changed. All that happen was it stopped, it didn't run out. Yes there'll be a some lag in restarting but not years, weeks or months at worse. The supply, shipping and companies and delivery corporations are just making up what for what they didn't sell and cashing in, by reducing supply and there aren't that many of them. The biggest is a state, who happens to have a vested interest, in seeing other states suffer!

Middlemen, produces, speculators and distributors are cashing in on that, by using the same excuse, forcing retailers to rise prices. It's utter greed and some politics thrown in.

Lets get back to trains, now wink

[XJR1300]

@Colin B well saidwink

[ColinB]

Well Fazy its Hornby's fault because they outsourced their production to China. Outsourcing your production to China is not an issue, loads do it, but they didn't do it sensibly by going into partnership with a company (you have to do that in China) which would guarantee production. No from what I gather they go on the open market for production, great if there is a glut, terrible if there is a limited resource as there is at the moment. We know they move it around as when they do, we get a bad batch of Locos. Now I noticed Dapol make their wagons in Wales, their wagons are substantially cheaper than Hornby's but more importantly if Dapol has supply issues getting locos from China, it has a product to sell. Hornby sort, of with their Airfix kits but definitely not with their railway products. As to the cost of Gas, China runs mainly on Australian coal.

[Fazy]

Well I’ve already pointed out that we will just have to disagree, but you don’t want to drop the argument, most if not all of Dapol wagons made in Wales, are dated and under scale on the frames and as such are not in the same ball park as newer models.

No China dosent use as much gas, but the lorry’s ships and the plastic used in the models come from the same industry as gas ie the petroleum industry.

So does all the company’s which make the sub contracted work such as circuit broad, chips motor chassis blocks etc

Same with the company’s producing all the metals and parts made from them. All need to move them parts from A to B,

As for Hornby becoming a partner? Hornby is a little company and is just a small fish in a much bigger pound.

And the real bad news is our models will never be as cheap again.

[Tony57]

Hi

Just looked at GSN website they are advertising 2 new 7 plank open wagons for £12 90 each as part of the fund raising for the Medway Queen and 21C11 General Steam Navigation Locomotive's restoration. Hornby's seven plank open wagon is £20+ per wagon. How can the price difference be justified?

[atom3624]

If I were the cynical kind, I would wonder if some of these delays are a little contrived, to permit an additional increase before the locomotive is issued / made available .....

Al.

[david_watts1]

Well, after looking at the new releases there is a shed load of stuff I would like. The LMS renumbered Coronation coaches, The LNER Coronation coaches, Turbomotive, Prince of Wales, never mind the W1s still to be released. Thousands of pounds worth of stuff. Am I going to preorder any of them? Absolutely NOT. I'll wait for them to appear on auction sites for reasonable money or go without.

[TVR1707822112]

@david_watts1

I completely agree.

The class 50s, GW IETs etc I would like, but the price is so INSANE I'm just not going to. As I said earlier, they're doing a Bachmann.

[Fazy]

Nothing anyone as said here is new or is going to make the slightest bit of difference. All you are doing is winding yourselves up. When I came back to the hobby 20 years ago now how time fly’s I found I had £600 spare so decided to get back into the Hobby. I bought Bachmann class 24 25 45 and a 20 all for £49,95 each! I thought brilliant. Obviously track and the controller the wireless one Bachmann dcc. Sorry can’t remember the name. With in a couple of years the engines I had bought went up to £100 each, loads of moaning on forums such as this etc. Bachmann at some point later did publish a brake down of costs. And they had been running at a loss on many of their products. even after the rises the their profits on models are only 10 to 15%. Now you might think that’s a lot but you have to remember investing in new models cost.

Years ago it was about 250000 to bring a new model to the shops.

Today Bachman’s all singing and dancing class 47 has cost Bachmann £1,000,000 research And they need to make that money back. Hornby has just released new multiple models at a considerable cost. And need to recoup the costs

Also transport costs the most costly part of transport was from the shipping port to the where house in the uk. Shipping cost have gone from £2000 per container to £ 12,000 over the last year. the shortage of UK drivers you have seen have impacted on the moving from ports to where houses this end. And this is happening all over the world. So no Hornby are not trying to rip anyone of and are doing their best to keep afloat. Expect other companies to rise there prices in the new Future. So yes things have gone up a awful amount but I see it going up more over the next few years.

So you can choose don’t buy or choose wisely and save up for it. It’s what many people do all the time. And don’t moan about what you can’t do anything about it will just ruin the hobby for yourself and others