Hornby in big legal trouble???

[Commander Shepard]

If you Watch Rapido trains latest video on their YouTube channel, you will see they have an exclusive contract with studio canal the rights holder of titfield thunderbolt, they have advised they will vigourously defend the copyright as they describe Hornby have yet again steamrolled their way in. The video is actually quite funny in Rápido style. Do you think Hornby has finally come up against someone and a studio that’s willing to defend their copyright?

[Fazy]

What I’ve read is Hornby are saying their model is based on the book not the film. So it’s likely to get a little grey, in whos at fault if anyone. So I wouldn’t worry too much. It will get sorted out sooner or later and probably be very boring in the end. And even if Hornby does decide to change their mind it would be easy and just say they are producing the Lion loco and the rest of the model moved around to say railroad.

[ColinB]

Of they go again, class 66, Terrier, Prairie, 4 and 6 wheels coaches, are Hornby so devoid of ideas that they have to copy someone else? There are plenty enough models that they could make, they could even make the ones promised in 2021 and 2020 catalogues, without having to copy someone else. I did wonder when I saw their new releases. So they blast a load of their limited resources just to get it out before their competitor and generally it is not as good.

[Commander Shepard]

@ColinB

So true. I find It’s funny that Simon says give us suggestions it’s your range, yet for the decade plus people were screaming for the class 91 we were ignored, yet the second Cavalex announced it, off Hornby went. Same with all others you mentioned. It seems it’s not our range, it’s just let’s build models at all our competitors are, to try and run them out of business so we can charge whatever exorbitant prices we want.

[ellocoloco]

@Colin

Class 66 - are Hattons/Bachmann so devoid of ideas that they have to copy someone else?

Terrier - are Rails so devoid of ideas that they have to copy someone else?

Prairie- are Dapol so devoid of ideas that they have to copy someone else?

One thing is certain about a OO scale model of the Lion/Thunderbolt. Its boiler will be too narrow as it is stuck between wheels on axles that are too short. Visually you might get away with it on a larger loco, but on Lion it will look dreadful.

[ColinB]

If anything Hattons copied Bachmann, Rails made the Terrier as nobody else made it at the time. I gather the same goes for the Prairie. If you read the websites, on all three occasions Hornby rushed out the product to beat the opposition, originally they had no intention of making these products immediately. Then there is the 4 and 6 coaches and the Stephensons Rocket 3rd class wagon. As for the Lion no interest for me, it just annoys me that they are late for every product even when there isn't a pandemic so why waste the effort trying to beat someone else. Generally most people preorder this stuff so if you are late to the party unless you have a cheaper brilliant model, people will stick with their original order. I stuck with my Hattons orders for coaches on principle and cost.

[wairoalbany]

The bad thing about this for Hornby IMO is perception. It makes Hornby look unimaginative and slimy. They knew Rapido were building the Thunderbolt and had rights to it. So even if they are right legally, IMO, they are coming across as a bit desperate.

There are so many other models they could produce.

[Bulleidboy]

I doubt this will go anywhere. It was probably sorted out months ago.

[Commander Shepard]

@warioalbany

Couldn’t agree more. Their rush for the class 91 nearly destroyed Cavalex, and it’s clear today Hornby had nothing but a rushed computer render going, given the time it took for even a prototype, let alone how long it’s taking for release. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bachmann were planning a 755 😂

[Carltonf]

It is interesting how Hornby have worded their pack "Trains on Film as seen in 'The Titfield Thunderbolt' Train Pack". And on the box artwork, it says "inspired by the film". I'm no legal expert, but can't see how Rapido can do anything about that.

[TVR1707822112]

I know. I agree that it's rediculous, I mean, why waste time and money on making Knockoff Lego when they could be using resources to make new thing people actually want or delivering the products they said they would!!

It's a shame - as Sam'sTrains said on YT - soon there'll be not Hattons, no Accurascale, No Cavalex etc.

And they're truing to replace retailers...

[ColinB]

I am not so sure, I would be more worried about Hornby. Outsourcing everything possible, messing up delivery so they have to fix the locos with expensive UK staff, probably had to order in more bodies to fix those broken. Having a marketing department that doesn't seem to have a clue. Two price rises of over 10% each time, that to me sounds like a company in trouble.

[Commander Shepard]

@colinB

And they're going up again. The LNER Azuma is £480, which is currently in stock, yet the autumn release of the same, and GWR is £501 ! It’s up almost 60% since original release. Hell the near 20yo pendolino is £301! Which should be Railroad imo.

[JeremiahBunyan]

Of they go again, class 66, Terrier, Prairie, 4 and 6 wheels coaches, are Hornby so devoid of ideas that they have to copy someone else?..............

 

 

The Hornby Class 66 is in no way shape or form anywhere close to the specifications of the Hattons Class 66. The Bachmann Class 66 is also ahead of the Hornby Class 66 by a country mile. What screwed the Hattons Class 66 was terrible QC and Hattons' absolute lack of communication about it thereafter. At no point in time did Hattons issue a statement about the defective model.

The Hornby Terrier wasn't rushed out by Hornby at all. It was an Oxford Rail model that came under the Hornby brand. So no, Hornby didn't duplicate the Dapol/Rails Terrier.

The GWR Prairie could possibly be duplication but since Dapol have such long development times, it's hard to say who started first. Either way D*p*l won. They played it slow and steady, and they had the better model

The Class 91 was mentioned at Warley 2016 when Hornby announced the Class 800 IEP and Class 87. The Hornby rep at the time of the briefing clearly mentioned that the Class 87 was chosen first as it was cheaper to tool and said that the Class 91 would follow. Cavalex took an unnecessary risk by announcing their Class 91 project. After the Hornby announcement, Cavalex said they received more orders but still decided to cancel their model.

The 4-wheel and 6-wheel coaches are the only ones that they deliberately copied. Not the best idea from them. But thankfully the generic coaches are good sellers. Sadly the Hattons ones are delayed significantly. I'm sure they have the better one on paper. But if things end up like the Class 66, then I'm worried for them.

[JeremiahBunyan]

@ColinB

So true. I find It’s funny that Simon says give us suggestions it’s your range, yet for...............

 

 

The Class 91 was mentioned at Warley 2016 when Hornby announced the Class 800 IEP and Class 87. The Hornby rep at the time of the briefing clearly mentioned that the Class 87 was chosen first as it was cheaper to tool and said that the Class 91 would follow. Cavalex took an unnecessary risk by announcing their Class 91 project. After the Hornby announcement, Cavalex said they received more orders but still decided to cancel their model.

[JeremiahBunyan]

If anything Hattons copied Bachmann, Rails made the Terrier as nobody else made it at the time. I gather the same goes for the Prairie..............

 

 

There's enough of evidence online to show that Hornby's L&MR 3rd Class wagon was well into development already. Infact it was measured up along with Rocket and the 1st Class coaches. Once again (and not that it is wrong or sinful), Rails decided to cash in on the Era 1 pot of gold. It was a risk they took when there was an unannounced one in development.

Besides Rails advertised theirs as 2nd Class i.e with seating and Hornby's was 3rd Class i.e. without seating. So technically even Rails could have go ahead as the wagon may have been identical on the outside, but they were different.

[TVR1707822112]

Yeah. I was astonished yesterday with the RRPs of their new products, like the class 50 that's been knocking around since the early 'noughties. I was going to buy one, though I won't now. I think it's ludicrous, especially since their quality is going down as well. I think if it goes up by much more, especially since I'm relatively new to the hobby (started dec 2019) I just won't give Hornby my custom.

[ColinB]

I have a couple of class 50 locos I bought second hand on EBay. On the second hand models you get to realise what falls off and all its vulnerable points. Well unless they changed the design, buffers fall off and the connectors to the roof give issues. Funny I have bought a ton of Bachmann second hand diesels, class 47s, 37s nothing seems to fall off. Add to that I can mail Bachmann and get spare spares of the parts that fall off. Hornby forget it.

[threelink]

Now I understand why the price of the second hand junk I buy to cobble into locos and stock has rocketed in price. It's acomplete pain because my hitheto average cost of £8.00 per loco is heading for a sky high £15.00 or more. It's a good job that I have a lot of parts in hand that will keep me quiet for a while. This hobby is a broad church with space for all views but how can anyone seriously contemplate paying £300.00 for a loco when it will probably wear out 10 years or so hence and require replacement then and every ten years thereafter at even higher prices? I do not think that I am alone in lacking the ability (and the space) to create a layout to museum standards of appearance so why would I spend a fortune on museum quality locos and stock - they will just look out of place. Sadly it seems that the major manufacturers are hell bent on forcing average Joes like me out of the hobby by restricting the choice to museum quality (and expense) or nothing.

[TVR1707822112]

@threelink

I agree completely.

[ColinB]

@threelink I must admit I find it amazing you get locos that cheap, even my old 1980s ringfield based tender driven ones fetch about £30.00. I buy a mix of second hand and new ones. I also build some from bits and modify tender driven locos to loco driven by fitting the appropriate chassis. If you run a large layout it is virtually impossible to keep the new ones in pristine condition. With Hornby bits drop off in the box, so you can imagine what drops off on your layout. You hear people on the site say that Dapol wagons are out of scale but do you notice on many layouts? I am more interested in them not derailing. The only thing I will say about some of the newer Hornby locos is they are less likely to derail as Hornby have spent a bit of time getting the front bogie right, but on the latest Hush Hush they got it completely wrong. The one thing that has improved though is coaches, mainly I think due to the Bachmann influence but even those are at silly prices now.

[threelink]

@ColinB

They are cheap only because I buy bits and pieces - a chassis from here, a motor from there, a body from hither and wheels from yon (often as job lots) - and cobble them together to make locos. A bit of detailing, half decent wheels, scale 3 link or screw link couplings and a coat of paint and, even if I do say so myself, they are indistinguishable from r-t-r at normal viewing distance. They also run smoothly and are quiet and controllable down to a crawl - second hand does not mean second best. I keep detailed records of expense so I know exactly what each costs. I also take liberties, like shoehorning old Lima power bogies into Aifix kit or Triang/Hornby/Lima tenders to make tender drives, or using theatrical painting tricks to create the effect I look for, but it all works. The same goes for rolling stock. The only drawback is that cobbling is time consuming (and ferociously addictive). I would rather buy cheaper less detailed models and detail them up to taste, but that is the one option that is no longer available. It's that lack of that choice that is so annoying.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about Dapol stock. I defy anyone to register that any given piece of stock is marginally out of scale when viewed from, say, 2 feet away. As you say, its the ride that counts.

[nicholas_rothon]

It will be recalled that Hornby issued a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack in 2013 - R3186 - this included a DVD and film poster - with a 1400 class loco rather than Lion. It seems obvious that Hornby would have received rights from Studio Canal for this and presumably the rights are still in force. I am sure that Hornby's lawyers will be looking carefully at the 2013 agreement. Rapido are fed up but their claim should be against Studio Canal and its lawyers for lack of due diligence in selling them a copyright but possibly not advising them that rights had already been issued previously to Hornby.

NR

[ColinB]

I am not an expert at this, but "rights" don't last forever. Hornby had the "rights" to Thomas the Tank they don't now. I think Bachmann owns them currently, so it all depends on the original agreement. Anyway Hornby have breached the copyright they have used photos from the latest film, so I suspect the film company with be talking to them rather than Rapido, not a good position to be in. I cannot believe a company like Hornby could be so naive. Forget Rapido, they have breached the copyright of the film.

[Commander Shepard]

Hornby had the rights in 2013 for a limited run of models for that year, and chose not to renew. Only Rapido have the rights from Studio canal ( confirmed from SC’s PR dept )

oh @ JeremiahBunyan you only need to watch the model world tv show to realise how wrong you are. There are clips why Simon gets insiders to leak him info so he can decide what to make/ get out ahead of. The 91 was a prime example as it was a picture for over a year. And that 2016 meeting, they said the would consider all requests but it’s to expensive at this time. The 91’s initial artists drawing is from 2019.