Hornby Class P2 Cock O North needs more power to get up to speed

[Deem]

Problem with one of my

Hornby R3171 which have been have converted from 3 Pole with Flywheel to 5 Pole Motor without Flywheel by previous owner and Hornby Decoder.

I also have Hornby R3171 with genuine 3 Pole motor with Flywheel and Laisdcc decoder,

Issue I am having is 5 pole Loco version needs up to 5 bar of throttle of Bachman Dynamis DCC Controller vs 2 bar throttle of Dynamis Controller for 3 Pole version Loco to reach same speed on track.

I have ran the 5 pole on Rolling road for good 15 minutes on half power of Dynamis in both direction to see if that solve the problem.

Still same issue.

Wheel and valve gear are free, so is motor is running free as well, gears have heavy grease on them.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

Regards

[morairamike]

Have you tried swooping the decoders over to see if that makes a difference.

Are the decoderd set up with the same values for start voltage, acceleration, deceleration, terminal voltage and does one have speed table enabled or BEMF on in one off in the other.

[ellocoloco]

As these two models have different motors in them, there is no reason why they should draw the same amount of power.

[rpjallan]

Also, settings such as start voltage aren’t adjustable on the Hornby decoder…

[508006]

The 1 big question I would look at here is whether the grease is still usable or whether it has dried up.

If it is still usable then it should move around when power is applied, however, in the latter case, if the grease has dried up the the locomotive will need a clean out and re-lubrication asap.

If this has happened then it will prevent the gear cogs from turning properly when power is applied thus it means the motor will require more umpfff to get it to start the loco and train moving because giving the motor more power to start itself and a train load while the grease is dried up can risk a burnout of the motor.

[Deem]

As for the answer of 2 Different motors and they drew different power, my thought would be 5 pole should be using less power compare to 3 pole, 5 pole being more superior motor.

I will try swapping the decoder to see if that have any impact on how much power loco would use

Grease is not dried up at all, who ever replace the motor have lubricated well with grease in gears only, so my question would be - what do I use to clean the grease from gears and chassis, so I don't cause any damage to either. If they were M/C or Car parts I would use petrol or kerosene oil but I never washed or cleared Locomotives before so any help will be much appreciated.

[508006]

To clean the grease of the gear cogs all you need is an old cloth that preferably is not used for house dusting, I've always found it to be the best way to clean up a loco's gearing.

[ColinB]

Trouble is you don't know which 5 pole motor they used, if it was the Pendolino one, which is the one I used then they should have fitted the flywheel back on. I know from bitter experience with a Princess motor that although all Hornby motors look the same, internally they seem to behave differently. I don't know if they change the number of windings, but I know the Duchess I fitted the latest Princess motor to (as I couldn't get the proper one), goes like a rocket so they obviously do something. Since you are into learning why don't you swap the 3 pole out of the first P2 and put it into the 5 pole P2 and see if it runs better then you will know. My P2 when I changed the motor ran tons better. Alternatively buy a Pendolino motor which is under £10.00 for New Modellers and replace the motor, so you can have a flywheel. For some reason motors from New Modellers seem to run better than others I have purchased, I don't know why.

[96RAF]

@colin

In my younger days I would rewind slot car motors to ‘tune them up’.

The number of turns and gauge of wire used determined the armature pole resistance and ultimately best working voltage. Voltage versus resistance then equals RPM within a chosen range. I had a table of values to work to for basic set up. Long since lost.

You will find in general many turns of thinner gauge wire and more poles gives a nice smooth running motor, especially controllable at low speeds (ideal for slot car beginners and locos) whereas fewer turns of heavier gauge wire made the motor more ‘cammy’ and hence tended to be more powerful but resulting in on/off and less refined control (ideal for boy racers). Of course less turns and heavier gauge means less resistance and more current draw at a particular voltage and number of poles affects notchiness and any tendency for cogging. So you see there is more to motor matching than a similar looking exterior.

[508006]

For my P2 which was a project after I bought a brand new chassis off ebay ( fully working of course ) the 1st thing I did was remove the 3 pole motor and fitted an X4026 motor ( also suitable for LNER A1/3/4 and other locos ), purchased ( from peters spares ) a tender chassis for Tornado, made my own tender pickups and added a capacitor into the tender wiring.

After testing to find out which way the wires needed to be connected to the motor so that it would run the correct way, oiling was carried out ( no grease at all ) and extra weight added, put the loco on the rails coupled to 9 Bachmann mk1s and she pulled away nice and easy with them in tow.

My loco was fitted with Walschaerts valve gear from a V2 kit loco I bought for spares and after the plastic caprotti gear was removed and some modifications to the cylinders the valve gear was fitted and works well bearing in mind that this was done well before Hornby even announced the Walschaerts valve geared locos ( 2002 - 2006 ) of which 2003 - 2006 are the locos with the A4 style front end.

My loco has the A4 front end as I used an A4 body which I extended to fit the chassis, I originally intended it to have sn A3 body but it would not fit over the chassis so the A4 body was used instead.

[Deem]

@ColinB

I will bite the bullet and order Pendlino Motor to see if that improve the situation in using less power to get up to same speed as the 3 Pole Motor with Flywheel Class P2.

@RAF96

Thanks for insight into motors, appreciate your time and effort.

@508006

Thanks for sharing your experience modifying.

[Deem]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304122864694?hash=item46cf22a436:g:B~sAAOSwytFhKNSG

I will ordered this motor and now I will have to buy Worm Puller or make one at home.

[96RAF]

Amazon about a tenner.

[ColinB]

Yes 96RAF tried that one, you need the other one which Deem originally suggested but you need to make your own thin plate. I used a 5 pence piece. The issue with this one is the bottom jaws are too thick, on one of mine I ground down the jaws (yes I have two as I broke the pin).

[atom3624]

I've often found that - I've 2 decent pullers I've destroyed trying to remove worms and weights, and have decided to steer clear if/where possible now.

Al.

[Deem]

@RAF96

Thanks for your input but like ColinB said the jaw looks too thick to fit between motor Worm or flywheel, that assumption is just looking at the pictures of the puller,I have not seen physically yet and I could be wrong as well.

@ColinB

Some puller with various size pins do have double sides to use between motor and Worm or flywheel which looks thin enough to fit between and do the job. So instead making one I am thinking just to buy one, probably cheaper as well.

[Deem]

Option 1

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WORM-GEAR-PINION-PULLER-maximum-length-16mm-Expo-Tools-26241-/353843527533?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

[Deem]

Option 2

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Service-Dealers-Repair-Tools-2-A-Motor-Worm-Puller-and-Loco-Wheel-Press-/224906417645?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

[Deem]

Option 3

https://www.eileensemporium.com/component/hikashop/product/9213-worm-and-pinion-gear-puller-and-press

[Deem]

Option 4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tbkoly-Bearing-Puller-Pinion-Removal/dp/B09C3NWZ6C/ref=pd_aw_sbs_sccl_2/262-1135846-6562611?pd_rd_w=6Yg01&pf_rd_p=2a4904d5-64bb-4199-9215-43a7080cc9a3&pf_rd_r=KR4X6A919845Q1PE38XA&pd_rd_r=dac2cbdf-dea2-4ab3-908d-f5e253d8e699&pd_rd_wg=L0UDj&pd_rd_i=B09C3NWZ6C&psc=1

To me this make more sense than any other puller, but I could easily be wrong as well.

Any thoughts?

Regards

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Option 2

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Service-Dealers-Repair-Tools-2-A-Motor-Worm-Puller-and-Loco-Wheel-Press-/224906417645?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

 

This listing looks a bit suspicious.

The "Tri-ang Railways" labels are certainly wrong.

Not original by any means.

So, the back story of these being found in a proper box looks dodgy to me.

That said, the tools may work...

 

 

Looking at the seller's other listings, there are a lot more dodgy items, with non original labels, claiming to be new parts, etc.

In my opinion, this seller has some knowledge.

For example, quoting Pat Hammond's books to justify a rare item.

Bur one that could be created by a marriage of existing parts.

Buyers beware I think...

 

 

[Deem]

Further Update

Sorry for late update but thought some may find it useful, that's why I am updating here,

If you recall I asked advice about my Loco Hornby R3171 which had 5 Pole motor fitted by previous owner but was sluggish and needed more power before it would move. ("Hornby R3171 which have been have converted from 3 Pole with Flywheel to 5 Pole Motor without Flywheel by previous owner and Hornby Decoder")

Today I took it out because I received one more decoder so I thought, I try with new decoder. After replacing from Hornby 8 Pin decoder to Liasdcc NEM652 8 Pin.

Loco is running very smoothly and would need less power compare to Hornby Decoder. Almost identical performance to my 2nd Hornby R3171 with genuine Hornby 3 Pole Motor with flywheel.

Regards