Hornby Catalogue 2022 loco delivery dates.

[ColinB]

I was scanning the RMweb contributions and someone was complaining that the LNER Coronation coaches had got pushed back to 2023, so I thought I would check the Hornby shop. Virtually everything in the 2022 catalogue has got moved to 2023, some to winter 2023-24. It does seem a bit extreme, so really Hornby need not bother with a 2023 catalogue. Funny I was reading an article today that was saying the automotive industry is moving a lot of things back to the Midlands, because without products they can't make any money. So they are taking the hit on cost so they can at least produce something.

[Topcat2018]

@ColinB

Probably controversial and not strictly on topic but I think Britain is sleepwalking to disaster by having products made in countries with totalitarian regimes like China, helping them build up their industries, economy and military capability whilst British manufacturing withers on the vine, all to get cheap consumer products.

It is now virtually impossible to buy anything that isn't made in China.

How do we know that the products we buy aren't made by Uighur or other slave labour?

Now that we are out of the EU I don't know why the government isn't promoting "Buy British" and "Made in England/Wales/Scotland or Northern Ireland".

[Fazy]

Cost vs profit, have you seen the amount of people moaning about the cost of models on Facebook and other forums. Can you imagine them moaning if your always wanted model tripled in price because it’s got a made in Britain sticker on it.

but then again, would this make the hobby better? I remember people use to get a new model for their birthday or Christmas and it was loved.

Where now it’s almost a right to have. even if you get it you instantly move onto the next must have.

Has consumerism damage the hobby. Yes you can build a good layout buying all the models from x & y. Ie locomotives wagons buildings etc. but it’s just a display for the companies you buy from. Where’s the modelling,

could a cost increase improve the modelling by forcing people to think outside the box and do more for themselves.

[ColinB]

The trouble is with firms like Hornby, if lets say China do a Russia with Taiwan. then sanctions come in and that is your business gone. There is not the money or expertise to move production back to the UK quickly. Given how many new models they have released this year, there are serious issues.

[Fazy]

Sorry Colin be I added something to my previous post.

yes you are right. We have the business model trying to please everyone ie cost vs detail.

er also have consumers want the next best thing though connected to the first point

and politics which let’s face can’t be ignored but rarely fits in with the first two.

something has to give..,, I think it’s likely to be princess due to politics though I’ll stay of Facebook on that day.

[AndyMac1707817969]

China is a very big country with an awful lot of people to keep happy and employed in the lifestyle many are getting accustomed to. China needs the west as much as the west needs China, its internal market is nowhere big enough to sustain its own population. As to blaming a country like Britain when you really should blame the people but then again personal responsibly died a death a long time ago. There is no political gain in telling people you have to buy British at twice the price, no one is going to win an election on that. You might as well say you can’t fly because of climate change, will win no votes.

[ColinB]

Andy Mac I don't think anyone was suggesting that we be forced to buy British, they were just suggesting it might be a selling feature. Currently there is a huge issue with getting things made in China plus the Shipping costs, which don't seem to have come down since their rise after the pandemic as a lot suggested they would. Then we have the price issue, these figures of twice to 3 times the price keep being banded around, when actually nobody knows, because nobody in the UK does it. Take a Dapol cheap wagon, made in Wales cheapest available, ok perhaps the underframe is not that detailed but that is just a change to the CAD if they wanted to. Most of the production process should be automated, we know the moulding is, the paint/print is, we have seen Hattons printing of its carriages, so it is the separately fitted parts that are labour intensive. I have just bought an Accurascale Deltic which is priced at about £150, I bought the sound one so I am not sure of the actual price of the non sound one. Now if I compare that with the class 87 that Hornby were supposed to release last year at £161, it is now about £220 (well this week it is). Now the Deltic has more engineering more parts than the class 87. Now I am pretty sure Accurascale are making a profit on their loco, so why the huge difference. Is Hornby using its diesels/electric locos to subsidise its steam ones or the rest of the range. A quick scan through Rails new releases generally shows most are cheaper than Hornby and these are specialist small batches. The only one I did find is the new Bachmann class 37. On large quantities of orders where you are ordering a million plus yes, the savings can be great, not so sure when you are talking small quantities of less than 5000. The overheads of shipping and difficult communication have more an effect on the product.

Either way it is not going to change but if you can't supply a product, which Hornby appear not to be doing at the moment, the future doesn't look rosy.

[AndyMac1707817969]

I am sure Hornby are pushing things back to 2023 for various reasons. No point in producing another APT run that was originally scheduled for September 2022 when only one item (the NDM) from the original batch has yet to sell out. The release dates are only estimates as they have to reply on production slots and much of this may be out of their control.

Hornby I am guess have historic debt from years when they have made big losses, Accurascale have not so Hornby may need a bigger margin on items as they have higher overheads.  Bachmann are generally more expensive than Hornby for nearly everything, Hornby MK1 coach £40 Bachmann £60

You have to remember too that moving production to countries such as China in the paqst had a big benefit, it cued the ‘British Disease’. Production may have been in Britain, did not mean they made an awful lot.

[ColinB]

Actually Bachmann are not for locos, my brand new class 90 with DCC controlled pantograph was about £20 to £30 cheaper than the nearest Hornby equivalent. Yes for rolling stock they are, although with the carriages you not comparing the same beast. Actually the British disease is a bit of a myth, the Nissen car factory in Sunderland is the most productive in Europe and I think Japan as well. Also most of the Ford engine plants in the UK rate highly against the German plants, generally the German plants score higher as they cost things differently. It might have been in the 1970's but with robots and a more flexible workforce it is not like that anymore, those plants wouldn't be here if it was.

[james_nelmes]

The China issue is a red herring. Production moved to the Far East years ago because it was so much cheaper than Europe and almost every industry does it. Equally Covid has had a massive impact on production schedules as well as a shortage of electronic chips world wide and a massive increase in shipping costs and shortage of containers for shipping.

My only complaint would be I would like someone to define what 'Summer 2022' actually means? I would also like for Hornby to be more open about delays - they move dates (TTS Deltics originally July 2021 and now 'Spring 2023') without explanation, and most modellers would understand these delays if explained. Look at how well Accurascale communicated the delays to their Deltic - frustrating but at least I knew what was happening and why.

[ColinB]

They obviously don't tell their Retailers either, one item I was looking at was quoted as December 2022 but on the Hornby website it was winter 2023/24. I suppose it is a thing passed over from Triang, I remember when I was very young going to the toy shop to buy a wagon because the catalogue said it would be out, only to find it had still not arrived. I think after about a month I gave up and didn't bother. Originally I think there were originally two reasons to transfer production to China, one was cost, the other was the ability to fit smaller parts. That is what they said at the time, if I remember rightly. Trouble is at the moment many industries are getting very jumpy about their production in China, especially the automotive. Virtually every Hornby does not contain sophisticated electronics so the worldwide shortage of integrated circuits is a bit of a red herring. The only exception is probably the Elite, but there the issue is more likely that their uptake on processors is probably not enough to do a new production run.

[atom3624]

There's a very poor understanding of availability dates I've noticed.

Very few dealers are in agreement with any of the dates!

If they are important to Hornby, this should be something they keep updated on a regular basis to avoid embarrassment and frustration.

Al.

[HornbyKiwi]

Hornby now find themselves in a similar position to that which Bachmann was in a while back, with delivery dates growing ever longer from initial product announcement. The world has gone to h*ll in a hand basket, the pandemic and its repercussions are a very long way from over. Economies worldwide are struggling for staff, businesses have been unable to get back on track, with production down and the cost of shipping your products (if you can manage to get them made) going through the roof. Then there's that idiot Putin.

I feel genuinely sorry for Hornby trying to navigate their way through this.

Colin is right about the catalogue, they could just reprint this year's one, slap a 2023 sticker on the front and try again. It's hard not to think that the way Bachmann are doing things with their quarterly releases isn't a better way to try and go about things. Probably makes it easier when you own your production in China, or vice versa, but seeing their announcement of the Class 37 with two variants available for immediate purchase was impressive. Must have been very hard to keep shtum while Accurascale were touting for business with their version.

Hornby need to hold their nerve, resist the FOMO, and get products to confirmed production in China before announcement. I realize that's not without its own drawbacks, primarily how many do you produce, but they are hardly getting it right currently with the taking of pre-orders only to cancel later down the track.

HK.

[Potterton]

Mod Edit.

This model railway Forum is no place to voice your world affair opinions.

[ColinB]

Well I noticed the different liveries of Hush Hush are now available, so perhaps Autumn will bring some more new releases. I wonder if they will add another 10% this Autumn?

[atom3624]

I'm 'waiting to be hit' as I had pre-ordered a couple - grey double original and rebuilt B.R. green after Hornby's fathing around with dealer / distributor ratings.

Al.

[ColinB]

I got the mailshot from Hornby, they are changing £254.99 for the loco, far too much for me. This is one of those that would have been a good idea to preorder with Hornby, then (a) you would be assured of getting it (b) it would be at the old price.

[Potterton]

@Mod Edit.

This model railway Forum is no place to voice your world affair opinions.

My apologies. I was just responding to HornbyKiwi's comment at the end of his first paragraph and thought that as the latest "incident" involves China it is could be detrimental to Hornby delivery dates.

[ColinB]

Hornby along with a lot of businesses need to take a long hard look at their supply chain. I assume they must be anyway because one political decision and that is your business gone. Hornby have released some new releases and according to their website more are to come in September, although it looks like they are ones from the 2021 catalogue.

[Trains1707822545]

Hornby would rather make more profit then actually get there stuff released on time so I doubt they will move out of china. I'm pretty sure Hornby releases where delayed constantly even before the pandemic. Accurscale and Bachmann are also produced in China and I don't think they had nearly as many delays although I could be wrong.

[ellocoloco]

@trains

I doubt Hornby are alone in wanting to make profit, its ultimately what the business is about.

Accurascale announced their Deltic in Nov 2018 with intended delivery Q4 2019. It arrived towards the end of Q2 2022. Some Bachmann models, like the 94xx and 158 were so long between announcement and release that they appear to have given up on giving advanced notice. Much better maybe for Hornby to just announce models when they are in country. Bachmann's release of a retooled 37 just months in advance of Accurascale's loco arriving was a masterstroke. Makes the Hornby new Terrier after the Rails announcement seem so 'gentle'. All UK model train manufacturers suffer delays. Hornby's are no worse that anyone else.

[ColinB]

Hornby's issue is the fanfare in January announcing a new catalogue. It appears Bachmann have dispensed with this and just advising 3 months in advance. Accurascale are substantially cheaper than the other two makes I mentioned, so most people will put up with the delays, I know when I order a special from Rails it will take years as they don't have the perceived resources of Hornby. Unfortunately as is the case with Hornby, you order it from your model shop in January 2020 at lets say £160 and if you are lucky it eventually might get to your model shop (if they have been given an allocation) in 2022 at a price of £224. That is why people get annoyed. Now I know the simple solution is to order off Hornby direct, currently they honor the original price, but how long do you think that is going to last in the present climate of huge costs.

Simple solution, bin the catalogue or only display what is currently available and adopt the 3 month release scheme.

[atom3624]

This 'game playing' is one simple reason why I won't 'order direct' - principle stinks.

Economics and financial stability are always super important for longevity, agreed .... but .... 'nough said.

Al.

[AndyMac1707817969]

Whether you announce something with the intent to manufacture it or wait till you have manufactured it and are ready to sell does not make it arrive any faster. In the latter case the buyer is just in the dark for longer. There are many advantages over the way Hornby do things

An item is announced by Hornby and I can preorder it and get it at that price. After all Hornby can always honor pre-order prices they still make a lot more selling direct than at trade prices to dealers. I get the item at the today price, if there is a wait of 12 to 18 months till it’s manufactured before announcing it then it’s going to be at an inevitably higher price.

I can budget for it and have the money ready when it is expected due date or there after.

I can simply have the pleasure of looking forward to the item and seeing it going through its development stages.

Preorders allow a company to get feedback and gauge perspective demand and not just have to make an educated guess. Beneficial if you cannot just suddenly require a second batch if you have underestimated demand.

If companies know what other companies are intent on producing it helps stop duplicates for which there may end up being insufficient demand for two different productions.

They are estimated delivery dates in catalogues and are never set in stone so I don't see why so many people throw their rattle out the pram over things being a bit late. Once they arrive you forget about any delay.

[ColinB]

Things being a bit late, that is a bit of an overstatement. Bit late to me is possibly 3 months, not 3 years which has happened many times. As for duplicates Hornby do it regularly and it appears Bachmann does it now. Companies develop what they think will make them money, so if they can make a product better or cheaper than the competition they will go for it. Do you actually see the model go through its development stages? You see a couple of articles about it in the Hornby magazine or video and then it goes into this black hole. The P2 was even featured in their TV program, does anyone know when we will see that? Perhaps I am different, to me a catalogue is what is available, not a nice to have. Perhaps next time I am down at TLC electricals I will ask them why there aren't any products that are in there that they might sell in 3 years time. Somehow I think they would look at me as if I was mad.