Henry Booth and the new Hornby LMR carriage

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@Bee

I have no doubt that there was all sorts of piracy and plagiarism in the early 19th century publishing world, so all manner of discrepancies will have crept in between the various contemporary prints - makes the detective work all the more interesting. I am sure that you are correct about the sheep wagon. Here's hoping that further period stock and locos will emanate from Hornby.

[What About The Bee]

The Booth Carriage, a question of Class

Class is defined herein as level of service, not social standing. While it is tempting to associate high social standing with 1st class trains, this is easily disproven. 2nd class trains were the local trains, stopping at intermediate stations along the way. One could purchase a "six inside" fare for 2nd class trains, thereby getting a 1st class carriage on a second class train.

What I'd like to investigate here is the presence of curtains on the Booth illustrated carriage that will appear in R30090. What does this indicate for the level of service or the class of carriage?

In another thread, I discussed the LMR Queen Adelaide carriage, to be found in wishlists. LMR Queen Adelaide carriage; Not to be confused with Her Majesty's Saloon Clearly a 1st class carriage and definitely had curtains, as shown. Those 4 summer carriages had curtains to permit a breeze during the heat.

We have the diary entry of one Miss Kennedy, of 1833, in which she names several 1st class carriages, but insists that they were all shut up and further "We preferred a more open one, that only had curtains to the sides". By this statement, we can see Miss Kennedy had the choice between enclosed 1st class carriages and curtained carriages, and expressed her preference. 

From the evidence of the prior two paragraphs, I will assert that curtains are associated with 1st class carriages. Is that exclusive?

So what about known 2nd class carriages? There are plenty of illustrations. Indeed, I can identify forty six 2nd class carriages. The early 2nd class carriages had no roof and were the equivalent of stagecoach outside passengers. You sat in the environment for a cheaper fare, rain or shine. Within a few years, 2nd class carriages gained a front and rear walls and a roof, to protect passengers from embers.

Yet of the 46 class carriages in 2nd class, only 1 is depicted with curtains, to wit: the Walker drawing in Olive Mount with the same curious backward facing Guard. The 2nd class carriage appears to be the 6 forward facing rows and is identified by the unique door arrangement. So one of forty six. While curtains are associated with 1st class carriages, they are only weakly associated with 2nd class carriages.

We must remember that the Booth illustration appeared in 1830, when 2nd class carriages were literally outside seating. No walls, no roof, nothing to protect the passenger. The earliest Ackermann prints show exactly this and they are published AFTER the Booth illustration.

Booth clearly illustrated on that same page a 2nd class carriage.

But notice, no roof, no walls, no curtains.  

I think evidence convincing, but as mentioned, I am not ready to die on this hill. I solicit your views and evidence.

Bee

[threelink]

An interesting line of enquiry to which I am unable to contribute much except to say that on open sided carriages, I imagine that the side curtains must have been made from something reasonably weather proof - perhaps leather or oilcloth - otherwise they would rot rather quickly in the region's notoriously damp conditions. This might perhaps make the choice of colour for the curtains on the Hornby Booth carriage ( purpley pink) a bit suspect.

[What About The Bee]

Earlier, I wrote:

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Yet of the 46 class carriages in 2nd class, only 1 is depicted with curtains, to wit: the Walker drawing in Olive Mount with the same curious backward facing Guard. The 2nd class carriage appears to be the 6 forward facing rows and is identified by the unique door arrangement. So one of forty six. While curtains are associated with 1st class carriages, they are only weakly associated with 2nd class carriages

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My intellectual honesty demands that I correct my error. Anomalies always attract attention, and as I continued to study the image, I noticed something which essentially changes everything.

First, we will examine all carriages for round bottom doors, and accept only those with a superstructure. It turns out there are only two.

For all but the Duke of Wellington's ceremonial carriage, there are only two axles per carriage. No carriages have more that two, except the Duke's.

By this, we can see that there are 8 axles, and therefore 4 carriages

Counting the number of round bottom doors, per carriage, we can see that there are 3 per carriage in the Walker image.

Now examine the superstructure. There are four uprights in each of the two carriage

Consequently, I now state that the two carriages we see in the Walker Image are Booth carriages, to be found in R30090.

Since those Booth carriages are considered 1st class by myself, due to the enclosing curtains, I now find ZERO 2nd class carriages with curtains.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

Today ( 13 December 2023 ) there is exciting news.

The Hornby website, for R30090, has been updated. The expected season of arrival has been updated to [blank]. It was Winter 23-24, but now reads [blank].

It has been my observation that this is an indication of imminent arrival. Yet I could be reading too much into this.

For those of us waiting for this carriage ... Hooray!! Less than a year after 10 January 2023 Range Announcement. Perhaps Hornby are catching up with the backlog. Fingers crossed.

For those interested in how the website functions, this is an interesting test case. Is a [blank] season an indicative tea leaf of imminent delivery? If the state transitions to "in stock" by 31 December, then the answer is yes!

Bee

[What About The Bee]

Today, 10 January, the website status R30090 transitioned to "In Stock".

While it took 10 days longer than I expected, Hornby practice is now confirmed.

When the expected delivery season transitions from "preorder" to "[blank]", imminent arrival is expected.

I am so excited by the Booth carriage. Based on imagery analysis, I contend this is a first class carriage, used very early on, only in the summer. Contemporary 2nd class carriages never had a roof, nor wall coverings of any type above waist level.

Hornby have also made this carriage available in a single pack, R40438. Look earlier in this thread for multiples of this carriage in one consist.

Bee

[LTSR_NSE]

I too am extremely excited by the opportunity to purchase multiple R40438s (& also the R40436 Royal Mail Coach).

It is fantastic that (in only 5 years) we will soon have 4 different varieties of passenger conveyance for the L&MR (in addition to 3 Locos & 4 freight/wagons.)

Such continued investment from Hornby suggests the range is popular!

[What About The Bee]

Hello LT&SR_NSE

I was extraordinarily worried when Simon departed. I felt sure that he was the Hornby champion of the LMR range and with him gone, so would the LMR range be gone.

I was very happy to see more offerings and variety. Sovereign (R40445) is a known, named Glass Carriage of the LMR. When it comes into stock, I will likely pick that off with other 'in stock' offerings. I would have pre-ordered that, except £30 shipping on a £35 carriage just didn't sit right. SWMBO would be likely to hang me by my thumbs.

Bee

[Tom-378683]

Hi Bee,

That’s a great spot of the curtain carriages in Shaws Mount Olive print- not many see them!

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/olive-mount/qwHhc9vv-seYcg

This is probably one of my fav prints. Note the train is composed of a mail coach (blind sides), nearest the engine, the two curtained carriages you indentified and the ‘Victoria’ curtain carriage with a central ‘glass’ compartment.

Note the train is being drawn backwards, the guard nearest the engine has abandoned his seat to sit on the edge of the mail carriage roof, perhaps so they can turn and converse!

The train also carries outside lamps, there being no lamps inside the carriages.

[What About The Bee]

Thank you Tom. I included the print in this discussion to lend credulity to the concept that the Booth curtain carriage is a first class carriage, not second as Hornby have stated.

Now an interesting point you raise is of the Royal Mail Carriage in the consist. Royal Mail, or 4 Inside fares were only listed for First Class trains by Walker. You could purchase a ticket for a glass carriage on a second class train, but not 4 inside / Royal Mail.

First Class Train fares = 6 inside or 4 inside. Essentially Express.

Second Class Train fares = Glass Carriages (6 inside) or Open Carriages. The Local Train.

The inclusion of Royal Mail denotes the consist as a First Class Train. And what do I see there? The Booth Carriage!

This was a detail I had not previously known, for which I thank you.

Now let me turn to the last carriage in consist, furthest from the locomotive. As you show, it is a center glass, end curtain carriage. Much like the one illustrated by Crane

It would have to be fairly warm before sitting outside would be attractive to a first class passenger. Nothing like a stiff breeze to create windchill.

Thus, the carriage would be used primarily in the summer. We know the last carriage to be a Glass Carriage, albeit with curtain compartments.

This is yet another reason why I categorize the Booth Carriage as a first class carriage. It essentially extends the concept of the summer compartment to the center compartment. Instead of just the ends, it is all three.

Bee

I have a very annoying habit of categorizing images in differing ways. Sometimes by publisher, sometimes by artist. For example, I refer to the Olive Mount print discussed as a Walker print, even though it is by Shaw, a known good observer. I know the 3 Ackermann long prints, dated on the prints 1831, 1833 and 1834, are by Shaw. My apologies for this odd categorization. It is an artifact of my research and does not necessarily conform to methods by others.

[Simon-372339]

@Bee,Tom What is the date for Cranes print?

[What About The Bee]

Information is remarkably thin on Crane. William Crane, of Chester, was active between ~1829 to ~1840. Died 1843, giving a terminal date to any W. Crane image. He has other non railway works which demonstrate his artistic capability.

As to Phoenix, Rocket Class, LMR6. Participated in Opening Day ceremony, directed by R. Stephenson. Engineman John Wakefield. Two brakemen listed, James Wood and Hugh Greenshields. Two is consistent with practice as I understand it. A brakeman on the carriage immediately behind the tender, who passes commands from the engineman to the brakeman on the last carriage. Commands like: release brake, set brake, etc.

According to RGH Thomas, the Queen Adelaide curtain carriage (not to be confused with Saloon No.2) was converted from curtain to all glass in 1832. Dawson also confirms.

I would suggest the image is circa 1835, not later. Phoenix, with a type 1 tender (barrel) and 0-2-2 configuration would have been quite outdated by then, similar to the curtain carriage, outdated.

Bee

[LTSR_NSE]

It would have to be fairly warm before sitting outside would be attractive to a first class passenger. Nothing like a stiff breeze to create windchill.

 

 

Those L&MR owners must have been decidedly incautious with spending to create ‘Summer’ carriages

To misquote Jane Austen… It is a truth universally acknowledged that (in the UK) any place north of Watford shall receive two days of Summer each year. 😉

[What About The Bee]

Hi LT&SR_NSE

It is a curiosity of course. Why spend money for a carriage used at best 4 months of the year?

It was the very earliest of days of the LMR and experimentation was the order of the day. There was no text, no guidebook. It was all ad hoc.

Compare these curtain carriages, with full end plates, a roof and side curtains, to the contemporary LMR outside passengers in 2nd class. No end plates. No roof. No curtains. All year round. Brrrr.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

The shipping carton arrived, slightly damaged. My heart sunk. Oh No!! Opening the GFM shipping carton, I realized that the inner contents were cocooned in bubble wrap. Which contained the Hornby brown box. Opened to yet another layer of bubble wrap and thence to the gloss printed Hornby box. Well done GFM! It arrived safely. Whew.

I will skip beyond Rocket. It is the same Rocket of R3809, R3810, R3956 and now R30090. I will likely convert this over to Northumbrian. My motorized tender will also substitute, having tender handrails per Nasmyth, making it a secret double header. Likely a repaint to LMR green too. For a braver day, when I lower the piston angle.

Likewise, the kerfuffle over the named 1st class glass carriages is over. Traveller and Huskisson are both present, as promised by Hornby customer care.  If you recall, Hornby shuffled the web page imagery, leading to confusion all around. Resolved. 

And now, the star of the show. The Booth Curtain carriage. It has the same chassis of nearly all Era 1 rolling stock. This time, in brown. Same finescale chain couplings.

The curtains are tabbed into the walls and roof, each very much appears to be a separately applied part. There is seating, which is never mentioned, anywhere!

This caused me to examine Huskisson under bright light, discovering there are seats in the glass carriages as well, with seat or bench dividers.

The Booth Curtain Carriage does not have bench dividers. Perfectly understandable, as the historical record is very thin. The Crane image of the Queen Adelaide Curtain Carriage does show 3 abreast, implying 6 inside, a first class feature.

It is very likely that the Booth Curtain Carriage had similar seating. 

There are full walls separating each compartment, as well as a leading and trailing wall. The Booth illustration of 1830 shows a leading wall, with the compartment divisions merely a vertical post. The trailing member is also a center post construction, no wall.

The roof detail matches the stamp, not the Booth illustration

A full roof rack, without seating for the brakeman. Hornby retains the steps and foot rest for the brakeman, as this would be logical for roof access. Needless to say, the brakeman seating is illustrated by Booth.

Enough faffing about, Bee, get on with it

I am quite thrilled by this carriage, as it represents the very earliest days of the LMR. Hornby have done a reasonably good job here. Could it be better? Of course, but perfect is the enemy of good. An example are the buffers. They are decidedly anachronistic for the earliest LMR days, but you would have to really know your LMR details to notice. 

I am happy. So much so that my pre-order for more of the Booth Curtain Carriages, R40438, will remain standing. Please sir, may I have some more? - Oliver.

Bee

Edit: thank you to the moderator who put the photographs upright. This is wacky. When initially installing the images into the new post box, they appear upright. After being saved, camera images then come out sideways, 90° out of phase. While the LMR images start out upright, and remain so. Positively schizophrenic.

[What About The Bee]

Some new information has emerged regarding curtains and carriages. The information has been gleaned from the British press.  

The first is an article from the Caledonian Mercury, dated 30 Sept 1830. 15 days after Opening Day. In it, the correspondent indicated that a carriage had a central compartment "fitted up like a stage coach¹, but with more glass". Further, that the other compartments if that carriage "had merely curtains to draw in case of rain". You will note that these are the "superior" carriages, and that lesser carriages exist. The Caledonian Mercury informs us that the lesser carriages are only with a covering above; and by direct implication, not the sides.

(Remember, you can zoom these images to read the text)

I have provided an illustration of curtain carriages before, by Crane. Henry Booth himself illustrates one, Queen Adelaide. Dawson, digging through Board records, identifies four carriages constructed thusly: Croxteth, Fair Trader, Queen Adelaide and Royal William.

The Derby Mercury, dated 13 October 1830 provides richer data. In fact, it unlocks the reason why curtain carriages went away.

"Complaints ... first class carriages ... quite open on the sides". The Directors apologize and offer that "first class carriages now depart ... are either glass carriages or completely curtained".  

Full stop. "Completely curtained"?

This statement could be interpreted that individual compartments are completely curtained. Alternatively, that the entire carriage is completely curtained. Yet the association, however you take it, is that curtains are associated with first class, and in referencing the first newspaper article, not second class.

There is only one completely curtained carriage ever illustrated: the Booth Carriage realized in Hornby R30090. Unlike the Hornby assertion, this is an early first class carriage.  

"Very shortly, all the carriages will be protected from the weather. Additional coaches are building ... to render railway conveyance ... satisfactory to the public."

Assessment? The LMR got rid of curtain carriages because the public didn't like them. The early Fall would have been quite brisk on the LMR, engendering those complaints.  

I had originally thought that the LMR would have put the curtain carriages away because they were summer only. The public thought so too, and complained enough for the LMR Directors to notice within weeks of opening and to cause them to take action.  

Dawson records that two of the curtain carriages were converted by 1832 (Queen Adelaide and Royal William) with the remaining two converted in 1833.  We only see the fully curtained carriage in Booth (1830) and Walker (1831), and then they disappear from the record as well.

Bee

¹I came across a printed list of corny jokes from 1828. One was "When is a door not a door? When it is a jar", proving that this joke has been in circulation for 200 years. Another is "What are the best shoes for wet weather? Pumps". So called dad jokes. This one is interesting. "Why are glass coaches so plentiful in London? Because they are without number". The joke relies upon the fact that hack carriages for hire did not have a number displayed. The interest for me is that the term glass carriage (coach) did not originate with the LMR. Further, the term was so readily accepted, it appears in a joke in 1828.  A reference point for the public when advertising fares. The term refers to a window that could be raised in inclement weather, made of glass.

[What About The Bee]

While researching other topics, I encountered this advertisement by the LMR, in a newspaper.

DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS

The LMR mentions, in May of 1831, that "open carriages" will be fitted up with cushions for the summer.  It is offered on "first class trains" [express] and the fare is 5s.  This fare is beyond second class fares of 3s6d.  When riding in a glass first class carriage, even on the 2nd class train,, the fare was 5s.  So this open carriage was considered first class accomodation.  

I submit that this may be referring to the Booth carriage, as it fits all the particulars discovered so far

Bee

PS Finally understood how to insert an image to my gallery, and then to insert from gallery to here.  Thank you LT&SR_NSE for prompting the experiment

Edited February 21 by RDS
To correct Auto Correct as requested by Bee

[LTSR_NSE]

Having fairly conclusively demonstrated that this particular curtained carriage is a first class design…

I wonder if you’d be interested in researching what the later 2nd Class carriages (built to enable originals to become 3rd Class) actually looked like?

Assuming you are equally successful, you could send the designs to Hornby for their next LMR release! 😉

[What About The Bee]

Hi LT&SR_NSE 

I am researching carriages and have some exciting information to disclose.  Just not at this moment  as I have to consider how to present it in a coherent fashion.  

Just like the velocipede information, I have never seen the information in any other book or article.  Novel research on LMR Carriages.

I'm also happy to state that, after getting confirmation of my thesis from the Friends of the S&DR researcher¹, I introduced that person to the relevant party at Hornby, simultaneously presenting my research. That is to say, I have already done as you have requested.  Hopefully, this results in accurate carriages!

Bee

¹ we independently reached identical conclusions.  His research is not published to my knowledge.  My research is all out in the open, here only on the Hornby Forums!

[LTSR_NSE]

I’ve had the email stating R40438 is now in stock & pre-orders will be despatched shortly.

(Cue the little kid bouncing up & down awaiting postie!) 😉

[What About The Bee]

Same LT&SR_NSE, Excitedly waiting!

Bee