Why is Hornby and other manufactures pricing new and young modellers out of the hobby

[What About The Bee]

....has anyone else looked at the prices of the Hornby International range some prices make Hornby UK look cheap.

 

 

Hi Tony57 👋

I am located in the US, but an LMR Enthusiast. So OO for me!

What Hornby is to OO in the UK, Lionel Trains is to O in the US. Either company dominates their respective market. Sure, there are other companies, but the 800 gorilla in the room is Hornby in the UK, and Lionel in the US.

I've posted this information before, but it bears repeating. If you want the top of the line Lionel locomotive, you are in the $2000 range. Add in rolling stock and, well, gasp. One train (loco & rolling stock combined) had an overall price of $4500 (£3700).

I, for one, do not consider Hornby to be expensive in a comparative sense.

But further, what one person considers an inexpensive price and another person expensive, for the same item is this: personal station in life, personal budget. Example: A sheik from Saudia Arabia is worth billions. He would not blink at purchasing multiple copies of the entire range. Its cheap. Example: a mudlark worth pennies. He would blink at the lowest priced item, far beyond his reach. Its expensive.

Bee

[ColinB]

I know when I was in Detroit many years ago I was staggered by the price of model railways mainly the Lionel ones but it appears from some of the videos on Sam's trains there are some really good budget buys if you avoid the likes of Lionel. Some of the locos he has bought from train world are less than a £100. There again Lionel trains are in a different league to the likes of Hornby and Bachmann and probably even better than Fleishmann or Marklin so there is some justification for the price. I listen to all the arguments about small market and all the extra detail but I still have difficulty accepting the prices for some Hornby locos, ones like the 9F. This gets worse when you compare what you get with a high priced Hornby Diesel/Electric loco compared with one produced by AccuraScale. I think even Hornby have began to notice as they are starting to add things like real steam features and sound fitted and not increasing the price substantially. Of course we still are waiting for the steam option.

[threelink]

I mean no disrespect to anyone but have to say that I still blink at references to so-called cheap locos at prices in the order of £100.00 and I do not think I will be the only one to do so - James, our Discussion Starter, doubtless would. I have a set average price limit of £12.00 for locos (recently raised from £8.00 in light of rising costs), £4.50 for carriages and £3.00 for wagons, and an overall spend limit of £5.00 per week. By cobbling together bits and pieces I have a roster of 97 locos, 58 carriages and over 200 wagons and the roster continues to grow. All run on near scale wheels and are fitted with near scale link couplings.Their mongrel origin disappears under a coat of paint and careful attention to detail ensures quiet, smooth and reliable running. Second hand does not mean second best and I defy anyone to spot their humble origin at normal viewing distance. It is perfectly possible to enjoy this fantastic hobby on a shoe string budget - I have been doing it for years - but it cannot be done just by opening boxes: you have to get your hands dirty. More power to the elbows of those who can afford to keep the manufacturers in business - long may they continue to enjoy the hobby in their chosen way and keep up the supply of second hand material to those of us who rely on it to enjoy the hobby in our way.

[What About The Bee]

Hi ThreeLink 👋

Truth be told, I find making kit is far and away more impressive than purchasing it.

Respect!

Bee

[The son of Triangman]

Prices are what they are. With a lot of modellers wanting more and more detail, material and labour costs going up all the time, and other costs then new models are pretty good value.

Those on a tight budget can buy the Railroad range models or go for used models found on the likes of toy fairs. There's always a way of staying in the hobby.

[Gary-351222]

Having watched the Hornby TV show it's amazing just how much work goes into designing and producing a new model. I've no intention of paying the prices for the latest models but I understand the reasons for the market price.

I've just bought a Flying Scotsman and three carriages for just shy of £100 on eBay. Hornby aren't pricing anyone out of the hobby; that choice is always the hobbyist's.

If you want new you will have to pay up.

[Rallymatt]

It’s all relative. My initial model railway experience was shared family or ‘loaned’, by 14 I had my first own locos and track (2 rail) additions were presents (Christmas and birthday) a few personal s/h purchases using money earned working on a local farm. The standards of the models by comparison to what’s available today was poor. We had 1 small B&W tv, I received my first watch at 15, a very basic digital one. I know this is a familiar story with many. My model railway had loads of features and stock because I made it. The reality is amazing models have never been more affordable

[ColinB]

Ok I hear this over and over again high detailed models that cost that much to produce. In some respects yes, if you take a modern Hornby steam loco that has been retooled then perhaps that is the case. Now if you look at some of the other rereleased models in the range. I recently bought the class 87 City of Glasgow, retail price over £200. I will admit it has a new PCB inside but other than that not much different to the previous model, then if you compare it to say the Accurascale class 92, there is no comparison. The Accurascale model is cheaper and better. If you do the same comparison with the new Dapol class 59, you get the same. Over the years we have got better at design anyone that has done a course in engineering drawing will know how long it takes to design something old style, compared to that CAD is a doddle. I know from my field in the old days a PCB used to take weeks to design, now you can do it in a day and with 3 D printing prototype it is much quicker. So in many ways you are devaluing all those guys at Triang all those years ago. Hornby's issue is it doesn't have the numbers so for small batches everything is expensive. So of course every time they raise the price especially at this moment in time those numbers reduce even further. A couple of years ago Hornby would quickly sell out of new models, have a look round now, you can still get them long after the release date. Trouble is high prices mean smaller market, most people that buy them probably already have most models so unless you get new blood into the market you will die. I have at least 3 Flying Scotsman locos, so why would I want an HD one, especially when it is about £40 more expensive than the corresponding A4.

[atom3624]

One of the problems nowadays is the huge choice of really highly detailed models, many being more 'must have' than others - previously there was never this choice or availability, irrespective of price.

I want a Polly with a few wagons, or a Brit and a couple of carriages, or a 31 or Hymek 35 with a few container wagons ... and you're nearly halfway to the locomotives and wagons and coaches available - not forgetting Lizzie and Winston, or the Blue Pullman or AL1 81.

Try listing what's available now so easily ... and that's only with one of what are now 4 or 5 major manufacturers / suppliers / distributors.

Al.

[81F]

When I started there was just Hornby-Triang (though Triang had just been dropped) and Wrenn in 00 and Jouef and Fliechmann that were readily available in HO but the last two were prohibitively expensive.

The first locomotive I bought myself was the Wrenn LMS 0-6-2T no 2385 for the magnificent sum of £7.45. I remember it distinctly as it took me the whole year to save up for it together with some money my Grandmother saved (she used to put a few coppers away for me each week to buy something while on Holiday).

I remember counting all the 2p, 1p and 1/2p out with hardly any 5p, 10p and no 50p pieces at Pecorama. I think a packet of crisps cost around 5p then, so the 0-6-2T was equivalent to around 149 packets of crisps.

It then took me another year to save up for 4983 Albert Hall except that my father changed most of the coin for cash - I think he felt there was more things worthwhile to do in Devon than to count out coins in a shop! Six months later I was able to afford GWR 101. So by the time I was around 14 I had just managed to get five locos not including my Dads 3 rail 0-6-2T which was plinthed outside the main station on my railway.

So I think what I am trying to say is that model railways have always been relatively expensive.

[AndyMac1707817969]

If you ever run your own business then you will quickly find the biggest cost for any business is the labour. When British labour got too expensive they moved production to China where people could be made to work for peanuts. Over the last ten years or so China has been raising the minimum wage for a better standard of living for their people so production costs in China have been rising, Obvious they will still work for a lot less than the Great British worker will get off their sorry backside for. Maybe it’s time to look for production in another country where workers will expect less and the British consumer can get things for a price they think they deserve. I have never quite understood this mentality that seems to prevail in society today. I don’t work for peanuts and I don’t expect others to either, maybe I am in a minority of one on this but its seems to be a compete mystery to the average person that the cost of producing an item is in any way determined by how much you pay in wages. Costs go up, prices go up, it’s hardly advanced economics. Having absolutely no idea on how much it costs to produce an items in no way impacts on your ability to decide how much it should be sold for as its your right to have what you want. This attitude is only something that have sprung into existence in the last 10 to 15 years. When I was 16 you could afford what you could afford and that was it.      

[What About The Bee]

Having absolutely no idea on how much it costs to produce items in no way impacts on your ability to decide how much it should be sold for as its your right to have what you want.

 

 

And if Hornby will not sell you the models you want, at the price you can afford, that is somehow Hornby's fault.

Example: I've always had a fascination with the South Pole and Shackleton. I want to go to the South Pole. When I looked into it, the flight was $30,000. They fly you there, you get to walk around for 4 to 6 hours and they fly you back. No overnight stays, period. But I could not afford that and now, decades on, the flight is likely much more expensive. Is that somehow the flight operator's failure? Should they not give me that adventure for $2500? That's all I am willing to pay. Not a penny more! Don't they know I deserve this? At my price? Costs be disregarded, it is my right!!

Spot on AndyMac

Bee

 

 

 

 

[ColinB]

Actually AndyMac you are sort of right in a funny sort of way, as to the British worker some are good some are terrible, I have seen both. I have also seen how the average German works, virtually no difference, if anything probably worse. On the other hand I have seen many a manager bleed a company dry or couldn't be bothered to sort something out. I have worked for a small company where buying the Directors a top of the range company car took precedence over buying decent development equipment. The issue that Hornby has is that is slowly pricing itself out of its business, yes perhaps people shouldn't expect something for nothing on the other hand, Hornby quality is not that great. I am sure TT100 was meant to drum up more business as in OO there is a saturated market and they are just too expensive. It didn't help upsetting all their Retailers, as we see with Rails they can always find something else to sell.

[threelink]

I don't think it's a question of the James of this world insisting on a given product at a given price because they feel entitled to it. It's more a question of the lack of choice. I don't want all singing all dancing super detailed smoke and sound effect fitted locos but I can't buy anything less because no-one makes them. Happily I am able to knock up, cheaply, acceptable locos from second hand rubbish but those who have not the ability to do so are frozen out of the hobby by the lack of choice in the retail market.

[Bulleidboy]

The trouble nowadays is that people are not prepared to save for something/anything - they want it now/today. When I was a kid I wanted a new bicycle, it was going to cost £27. My dad said "you save half and I'll pay the other half" - I had a paper round that paid 12/6d a week - it took me some months to save my half, but I got there and got the bike. Today many have a good wage/salary, but it appears to be somebody else's fault if the cost of items increases.

Sorry must not get politicalopen_mouth

In simple terms - if you cannot afford it you cannot have it - that's life.

[Yelrow]

This is very true ,Barry, although in my view, youngsters have no interest in model trains, preferring a Game Boy, or similar. In addition, us older folks want more detailed models for our money, and in so doing, naturally, this comes at a cost. Railroad, was , the way to go, producing to a cost, but that seems to almost have run its course. I think it has quite simply become an older market, for the guys who are prepared to pay these prices. Tis a shame.

[ModelerXYZ]

I disagree Yelrow. Plenty of people now are seeing the misery that computers do and are turning back to real hobbies. Yet they can't get into model trains because they are priced out of the market. Simple stuff is now too expensive. Even small engines are now retailing at nearly £100. I want something that runs well and I can fix if it goes wrong. Make it simple and don't make it so detailed that I can't play with it without breaking it.

XYZ

[ModelerXYZ]

I disagree Yelrow. Plenty of people now are seeing the misery that computers do and are turning back to real hobbies. Yet they can't get into model trains because they are priced out of the market. Simple stuff is now too expensive. Even small engines are now retailing at nearly £100. I want something that runs well and I can fix if it goes wrong. Make it simple and don't make it so detailed that I can't play with it without breaking it.

XYZ

[Rallymatt]

How much does a computer game box game thing cost? A pair of luminous training shoes ? And all rest of the ‘life essentials’ that are really luxuries like toy trains. Having to wait to have earned enough to buy a treasured luxury is not a bad thing. I am appalled by what I have seen in this hobby alone in recent months, TT:120 is launched and models are available but it’s not enough, ‘I want this now!’ And it’s repeated across all scales and all hobbies and life in general. I have witnessed allegedly rational people losing their minds because the Android app for a decoder isn’t available ‘NOW’ it’s a breach of their human rights as an entitled person!

I hope the thread originator is reading because I would like to apologise for being old and disappointed in humanity but savour the sacrifice in attaining what makes you happy, instant gratification is addiction not satisfaction or progress

[Barry-350851]

The responses to this thread are a bit like the Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch.

It is supply and demand more than anything.

The plain fact of this hobby is that it is driven by "the silver pound." There are a heck of a lot of boomers with a lot of money floating about and that drives the demand. Over 65s have somewhere north of 80% of the total wealth of the country, but plead poverty when they have to pay for a TV licence. Older generation calling younger "entitled" is the pot calling the kettle black really.

There is some good news, older and simpler models are available on the used market and if you're prepared to get something thats a non-runner and watch some YT videos on repairing and upgrading, there are some bargains to be had. It did seem 5-6 years ago that the used market for old ringfield stuff was a bit mad but I think it has calmed a bit now. There is plenty you can do with older stuff to make it look and run better for not much outlay and develop skills that will help in other areas of life.

[Barry-350851]

I have witnessed allegedly rational people losing their minds because the Android app for a decoder isn’t available ‘NOW’ it’s a breach of their human rights as an entitled person!

You're completely mis-representing that. My only gripe was not that the Android app wasn't available but that Hornby could have made it clear that the March launch was for Apple only. I would not have had a problem if the Android app was a year later if that had been made clear. I object to paying for a thing that I can't use for months. If they had said the Android app was going to be launched in May, I'd have waited and bought it in May.

 

 

[wairoalbany]

Hi James good deals can still be found in the second hand market. I am in the USA, however, I am sure in the UK there are some finds to be had.

Even now I can find cheap locomotives for $30 and wagons for under $10.

Granted these are not the highly detailed items we see in film and magazines, however, I find just as fun as those costing 10X more.

[Bexhill Donkey]

If you don't mind being a few years behind the times, there is plenty of stuff for sale on eBay. It is quite a good idea to put in a bid for a train set, as that will give you a lot of extra track and rolling stock for a knockdown price!

[sir john]

@Barry

You are rather insulting towards the older generation as you call us .I am 80 in 5 months time I have never begrudged buying a TV license I have never pleaded poverty. I have been in this hobby for over 50 years I don't moan about the cost of locos if I want one and can afford it I buy it if not i go without .I worked very hard to get where I am today, when my kids were young in the early seventies there was no family tax credits no universal credit at one stage I was holding down three jobs to keep my family fed. I started work at 15 and worked till I was 68.If I'm comfortably off now it's because I worked for it like many others of my generation

John

[Moccasin]

Looking at some of the 00 prices, I think many locomotives are still a bargain.

The 66s at £90 are the equivalent of £40 in 1990, which is the sort of cost I paid around then, yet far better quality than the locomotives available then. According to an Argos catalogue archive, a simple freight train set in 1988 (Class 58 & wagons) had an RRP of £80, which is over £200 in today’s money. The broadly equivalent Red Rover set in this year’s catalogue with a Class 67 costs £190. Note that, today, Argos are selling a OO Flying Scotsman train set (loco, 3 teak carriages and the rest) for £150.

Yes there are some very expensive locomotives around now, but they’re squarely aimed at collectors. I don’t think £90-120 is that unreasonable. While it might be argued that most of these are Railroad models, their quality is still very good.

Compare with Lego, who’re similarly targeting the collector market. Titanic is £650, the Millennium Falcon Ultimate Edition is £730.

So with all the inflationary pressures affecting all industries (e.g. volatile transport costs), we have to accept high prices are here to stay. Hornby and their competitors will be hurting too - with everything going on, many customers don’t have the spare cash they did just a year ago.