Gaugemaster controllers - incompatible with HM7000?

[96RAF]

Unfortunately the anti-Hornby drum bangers also tend to be deaf to common sense, logic and reason.

Compare Bridge Swingers, Tree Campers , Road Gluers, Ban Oil, et all minority nay-sayers. We used to call it squeaky wheel syndrome, that which makes the most noise, gets the most oil.

Apologies for drifting in politics.

[Rallymatt]

An interesting comment that has come up a few times from people who claim some technical ability…..

‘who is going to read 130 pages of a manual’?

Clearly anyone who wants to have an understanding of how things work, things to do, things to avoid and things to check!

Some individuals have become so convinced by their ‘unboxing prowess’ they genuinely believe all the answers are on the box lid 😳 blindly push on without really checking (they don’t need to because they are experts) and then whine when it goes wrong. As someone has already said, this frothing has more to do with people seeking validation and earning money for clicks.

How many HM DCC Bluetooth decoders have NOT failed?

[ColinB]

I think the original selling point was that it could be used with any DC supply, obviously not with the likes of Duette which we know uses raw rectification with no smoothing. I find it unusual that people are blaming Gaugemaster controls, these generally are of modern design so I would have thought these wouldn't be an issue, but I don't have one so I have never checked its output. Interesting about the Hornby haters, I suppose I must be one of them although I buy a substantial amount of locos off them in a year. Trouble is, there are some people that think they can do no wrong, when they make the most obvious mistakes.

The lack of the Android app being one in question, they knew when they were going to release this product, so you just work back from your "job 1" date to work out when you need to make sure the app is ready. Any delays by Google approving the app should be included in that.

Now we have the situation because of that you wonder is Sam right do they just blow up, then we have another saying they are perfect. I don't know, mine is still waiting for the app to appear. The other thing to note is look at one of the new decoders and compare it with the devices on a Zimo or LokSound decoder for size.

[Clement Matchett]

I have got four HM7k decoders which work fine using the Hornby 4 amp power supply. No burn outs or malfunctions of any kind.

The only criticism I have is that establishment or re-establishment of the Bluetooth connection takes 10 seconds or so. But once established, it does what it says on the tin!

[Rallymatt]

Peter, do you find the BT connection re establishes itself more quickly with all 4 decoders in the ‘mesh’?

[96RAF]

@colin

When the HM6K app was punted over to the Apple App Store it was on the streets in 2 days. The HM7K went in on 9 March, was twice rejected for who knows what and not released until month end, so the standard project management ploy of lodging milestones, then carrying out forward and backward passes to find the critical path to work from only works if external agencies play ball. Who knows how long the Android version will take to clear their house after submission.

@all

We await up to date stats from Hornby Towers about how many copies of the app have been downloaded and registered, how many complaints have been made, how many decoders exchanged and of those how many were faulty (according to the legal term), how many bricked or toasted by finger trouble, or use of incorrect power source despite instructions to the contrary, etc. That should then indicate the true failures, versus the miscreants, versus the silent majority who have sailed with the wind and are perfectly happy.

[Rallymatt]

Something I have been itching to comment on in respect of Colin B’s post. Why is it ‘obvious’ that an on HM Duette (that many would have in the loft) be unsuitable? Of course the answer is in the manual, the one so many people just ignore. Why is it any different checking the specifications of a 40 year old Duette to a 4 month/year old Gaugemaster (or any other DC) controller?

[ColinB]

I hate to say it but even 2 days is too late, anyone that has tried to get software approved knows the issues and as for the Android version that wait is totally unacceptable. I think I will say no more about it. All I can say is it has totally put me off buying any I would rather pay the extra and get proven technology. When Hornby finally get their act together on Android I will reprogram the one device I have to see if it is any good.

Now to the techy bit, so why is it that high frequency PWM upsets this device. According to one reviewer who had read the huge spec, there is a section that defines maximum PWM for the controller. Does the device confuse high frequency PWM with the DCC signal?

[ateshci]

@ColinB

Each and every DCC-Decoder will confuse PWM from 4kHz upwards with the DCC signal - by principle. In order to decipher the message you have to measure signal length ( i.e. frequency ) and that is roughly 4kHz for a 'zero' and 8kHz for an 'one', in other words 58µs on/ 58µs off for an 'one' and 110µs on/110µs off for a 'zero'. Nuff said?

[LTSR_NSE]

Picking up on the reasons why some DC controllers are incompatible (most of which is mentioned on pages 16 & 17 of the manual).

• Hornby have identified that controllers that use low frequency PWM of around 100Hz or less can cause sound distortions & decoders to become unresponsive - this includes their train-set controllers R8250 & R7229.

• Older controllers (e.g. Duette/Clipper) don’t appear to contain voltage smoothing and therefore can output spikes of over double the maximum that the decoders can handle.

• Laptop power supplies don’t always contain short circuit or overload protection (sometimes this is built into the laptop instead).

All of the above can disrupt/damage the sensitive electronics in the HM7000 decoders (and very possibly most DCC decoders for that matter).

Since Hornby cannot be expected to purchase & test every single brand & model of DC controller that has ever been manufactured (to see whether it causes any disruption/damage) - they have taken the precaution to advise against using any DC controller except for the HM6000 (provided its PWM is set to Highest).

As has already been mentioned, Hornby will be conducting further testing/evaluation of this, and they will doubtless add to the compatible list, any controllers they can confirm to be safe.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Rallymatt: …Why is it any different checking the specifications of a 40 year old Duette to a 4 month/year old Gaugemaster (or any other DC) controller?

 

 

Excellent point & the exact reason Hornby have had to advise against virtually all DC controllers… most owners of model railway controllers are not qualified electricians & therefore are unable to personally inspect & determine whether their controller is both safe & compatible or not. All non-electricians are reliant upon available documentation & specifications - which may or may not be adequate in this instance.

The reluctance to access the wealth of information contained in the available HM | DCC HM7000 manual, points to another rather large weak link in that chain.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Daedalus - Hornby have stated that the PWM frequency of R7229 is too low. I will edit my post above to reflect that.

[ColinB]

As for the app to work you never have to reverse the voltage so if you were to fit a large capacitor at the right voltage rating across the terminals (making sure it is the right way round) the PWM frequency becomes irrelevant. To be precise this is more the field of electronics rather than electricians, they being more involved with the higher voltages.

[LTSR_NSE]

Perfectly correct Colin, however I would expect those qualified in either field, to have greater knowledge and ability to determine, than the average person qualified in neither!

[Smallteasers]

I think the original selling point was that it could be used with any DC supply, obviously not with the likes of Duette which we know uses raw rectification with no smoothing. I find it unusual that people are blaming Gaugemaster controls, these generally are of modern design so I would have thought these wouldn't be an issue, but I don't have one so I have never checked its output. Interesting about the Hornby haters, I suppose I must be one of them although I buy a substantial amount of locos off them in a year. Trouble is, there are some people that think they can do no wrong, when they make the most obvious mistakes.

The lack of the Android app being one in question, they knew when they were going to release this product, so you just work back from your "job 1" date to work out when you need to make sure the app is ready. Any delays by Google approving the app should be included in that.

Now we have the situation because of that you wonder is Sam right do they just blow up, then we have another saying they are perfect. I don't know, mine is still waiting for the app to appear. The other thing to note is look at one of the new decoders and compare it with the devices on a Zimo or LokSound decoder for size.

“You just work back from Job 1 date” - oh my, this must be the most naive comment on the internet. There are a plethora of reasons why the Android app could be taking longer. A chap on YouTube called Euvirail has already done a video comparing current sizes of other manufacturers decoders v existing (sound based ) Hornby Bluetooth decoders - worth a look. Only the Next 21 seems to be a major issue at the moment.

 

 

[ColinB]

Really naive, isn't that how most industries work? Mine definitely did. What do you think a program manager does, makes sure every thing comes together at the right time, what do you think all these program management tools are used for? As for decoders try fitting the Next 18 one into any tank loco or an EFE class 143. I give up with chaps on YouTube, this decoder is substantially bigger than most sound decoders I buy and I buy a lot. Have you not watched Sam's video where he struggled to fit one in a tank engine. Even the 21 pin one is bigger plus the connector at the bottom causes issues, surprisingly with Hornby Steam Locos. Perhaps the guy should study the YouChoos website or the Road and Rails one. Zimo make one that I use, is probably half the size of the Hornby offering.