Can I use 2 smart devices for HM7000

[Slats]

Hi

I'm moving away from my NCE DCC system to HM7000.

I am wondering if I can use 2 smart devices for HM7000? I.e. One I can use, whilst my son uses the other as per having two controllers.

Thanks

[P-Henny]

This is a commonly recurring question.

The HM7000 decoders can only be linked to one APP on a mobile device at a time. This means that any loco your son controls on his APP, can not be linked at the same time to your APP device and vice versa with any locos you have under your APP control.

[96RAF]

This has been covered on forum several times as Paul says.

At present handover of stock between operators is possible but onerous in that the loco has to be delinked from the one device and relinked to the other device and vice-versa.

Plans are afoot with the developers to make this swapping twixt operators much simpler, I.E. Similar to using a pair of analogue controllers, but we have to wait for that to be devised and tested.

[Slats]

I'm sorry if this has been covered on other forums. I must seem daft!

However:

First - I'm not a forum person - I have nonetheless Googled this.

Second - I'm in Australia - my TT120 locos are arriving a few weeks from the UK. - Not all of us had the same access to TT120 products. Maybe this will make sense when my locos arrive?

Third - I have poured over the HM7000 FAQs and I still don't understand everything.

I not following what your saying - sorry.

With my NCE DCC system, you'd call up the locos code and start running. To end the loco you'd simply park it and call up another in its place. So long as two operators with separate NCE cab controls called up separate locos there would be no clash. I'm hoping simply for my son on his smart device to be able to drive 1 train and me to drive another. I don't need to hand over control or vice versa.

So do we simply download the app to both devices and then link to the Bluetooth decoders of the trains separately?

Thanks

[P-Henny]

@Slats.

You can't apply what you have learnt using DCC to the new HM7000 decoders when being operated in Bluetooth mode. The technology is completely different. For a start, the Bluetooth control does not use the decoder DCC Address that has been configured in it, therefore your DCC operation comparison is not valid. Even in DCC, only one DCC controller can be actually attached to the track. Any concurrent multiple control of locos is achieved by remote throttles linked to the same controller if it is supported by the manufacturer (not all do).

The Bluetooth implementation used by the HM7000 decoders only currently allow the decoder to be linked to one APP Mobile device. Linking in this context is not the same as Bluetooth pairing.

Once the Decoder has been linked to an APP Device it is no longer visible to any other APP device via the Bluetooth wireless communication protocol, thereby preventing it from being linked to two APP devices concurrently at the same time.

For clarity. Let's say you have four locos A, B, C & D and two APP devices called Mobile 1 & Mobile 2.

The way that HM7000 is designed, you would normally not have Mobile 2 and all four locos would all be linked to Mobile 1 and controlled by the Mobile 1 APP.

Now let's say you want to give control of loco D to your son.

You would have to unlink loco D from your Mobile 1 and delete the loco from your Mobile 1 APP 'Engine Shed' (loco roster).

To complete the transfer, you would now have to link loco D to your son's Mobile 2 and add the loco to the Mobile 2 APP's 'Engine Shed' (loco roster).

You now have no control of loco D via Mobile 1 as it no longer displays in your Mobile 1 APP and if you wanted to get control back you would have to reverse the whole procedure and completely re-install and link the decoder back into your Mobile 1 APP after de-linking it and deleting it from Mobile 2.

Although doable, it is a lot of faffing about if you wanted to perform loco transfers between Mobile 1 & Mobile 2 on a regular basis. Plus constantly de-linking and re-linking increases IMO the risk of something being software corrupted and losing complete control of the loco by either APP.

[Slats]

@P-Henny

thanks - I think I'm slowly getting it.

So what this means if you are used to having people over to drive trains - as I did with my N scale NCE DCC layout having separate controllers- you can no longer do so with HM7000!?

The best I can hope for I guess is buy 2 smart devices (I was going to get 2 cheap tablets -checking for compatibility) and put specific locos on each device for 2 people to take charge. If I do so will I need to register 2 different Hornby accounts?

I've poured over the FAQs and manuals and I haven't read this anywhere - so thanks for letting me know. The manuals don't even show explicitly how to turn a train off - i.e.e.g You drive into a siding and are done with the loco, do you simply make it inactive?

Thanks again

John

[Rallymatt]

In terms of turning a loco ‘off’ just stop it, you can deactivate sound/lights if fitted and it just sits there until you want to drive it again. You can tag it inactive via the app, the decoder will not respond to app driving inputs, CV programming etc. Loco is drawing a feed (if that section of rail is live) so if it’s faulty, remove from the track. To make it available again simply undo the inactive tag in the engine shed and you can resume control in the normal way.

[P-Henny]

There is nothing at all to stop you using the NCE control system CONCURRENTLY & IN PARALLEL with the HM7000 system.

The DCC track power provided by the NCE should be compatible with the HM7000 Bluetooth system.

You could have all your HM7000 fitted locos controlled by the APP in Mobile 1 (THE ONLY MOBILE DEVICE YOU USE). Then any locos you want to hand over to your friends or son can be transferred from Bluetooth back to NCE DCC Control by a simple transfer button built into the APP Control Interface.

In other words, you keep the Mobile APP Control dedicated for your own use and 'one click' transfer any loco you chose back to NCE DCC Control seamlessly. You can use the APP transfer button to transfer the loco back to Bluetooth Control even if it is currently in DCC Mode. What you can't do, is actually control the loco motor and functions from within the APP when in DCC Operating Mode.

[Slats]

There is nothing at all to stop you using the NCE control system CONCURRENTLY & IN PARALLEL with the HM7000 system.

The DCC track power provided by the NCE should be compatible with the HM7000 Bluetooth system.

However, Hornby advises track power of 15v DC for HM7000, NCE recommends measuring the output of the Power Cab using an AC Voltmeter. The measurement is made at the back of the Power Cab Panel (PCP) and should read approximately 13.8VAC.

I have read the sticky on compatible controllers and again I'm unsure what to do.

Should I for example plonk a new HM7000 decoder fitted loco on a track with my DCC NCE unit wired to the track or do I plug in the 15vDC Hornby power supply I have and somehow get the DCC NCE system to be powered from this?

I appreciate to some of you reading this that my questions might seem silly, but I'm very new to HM7000, yet to lay my hands on a TT loco with it, came back to the hobby only because of TT120, and my N scale DCC layout knowledge is a decade old. For some saying that all this info has been posted before, I am searching for it - but I don't yet have the vocabulary of terms yet understood to accurately find it or understand it so sorry again. I don't presume my old knowledge is useful, I'm just trying to understand how it all works. Along the way, I reading as much as I can find.

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

[P-Henny]

Look at it this way.

The HM7000 decoder out of the box is a bog standard DCC decoder. It just happens to have some additional Bluetooth circuitry bolted onto it.

Therefore the power for the HM7000 decoders is totally compatible with DCC track voltage and the HM7000 in Bluetooth mode can still use the DCC track voltage to power it when in Bluetooth mode.

The references you have read regarding 15 volt DC is confusing you.

Take for example someone who is building their very first layout and has never had ANY DCC controlled layouts. For those individuals, who have no interest in DCC, they can use the Hornby 15 volt DC power pack connected directly to the track instead to power their HM7000 decoders. This, of course, limits them to ONLY using HM7000 decoders in Bluetooth mode.

DCC track voltage is not true AC. It is a bi-polar squarewave which means that it alternates the voltage each side of the zero volt line similar to AC but is not an AC sinewave. This means that nearly all normal multimeters that are calibrated to read an AC sinewave signal will not accurately read a DCC waveform voltage.

DCC is typically 28.8 volts peak to peak. This means that the waveform alternates 14.4 volts each side of the zero volt line. Most AC Multimeters read this 14.4 voltage as anything between 11 volts and 15 volts subject to their calibration. This is where your quoted value of 13.8 volts AC is derived from.

So yes, you can power your HM7000 eqipped locos from your DCC NCE Controller track output voltage (not the NCE Controller input power supply) OR you can power the track instead from a Hornby 15 volt DC power pack connected directly to the track. What you can't do is connect both the DCC track voltage from the NCE controller track output AND the DC voltage from a Hornby 15 volt DC power pack to the track at the same time. It is an 'either or' choice. You also can't, as you seem to be suggesting, connect the Hornby 15 volt DC power supply to both the track and the power input of the NCE. If you have the track connected directly to a DC power supply output (any power supply) you can not also connect the DCC Controller track output to the track as well.

You use the track output of the NCE Controller (not its power supply) if you want DCC & Bluetooth dual control OR you use the Hornby 15 volt DC power supply to the track if you want HM7000 Bluetooth control only. You can't use BOTH at the same time.

Of course Hornby recommends using their 15 volt DC power supply. This is because it is a known Hornby product that has been tested with the decoders. Hornby also recommend using the track outputs of their own DCC controllers such as eLink, Elite and Select. The HM7000 system in Bluetooth mode should work with any brand of DCC controller but some forum posts are inconclusive on this. Hornby are covering their back by recommending Hornby products for power.

Just for clarity consider it this way.

Say you have an existing DCC layout powered and controlled by your NCE DCC Controller.

You buy an HM7000 Decoder and fit it to a loco. You place the loco on the track and control the HM7000 fitted loco with the existing NCE system using DCC Commands via the track rails.

You then download the HM7000 APP and link the new HM7000 equipped loco to it and switch (using the APP) that specific loco to Bluetooth control. You can now control that loco using the APP via wireless Bluetooth commands (these are not DCC). At no time did you need to alter, change, add to or update your existing DCC Power arrangement. It all works seamlessly together. The APP is now sending locomotive control signals to the decoder 'over the air' wirelessly using Bluetooth instead of coded DCC signals from the NCE Controller via the track and rails. The rails for the Bluetooth controlled HM7000 decoders are now only providing power. If you then try sending a DCC Command from the NCE DCC Controller to the HM7000 decoder when switched to Bluetooth mode. The HM7000 will ignore the NCE DCC Command as it has been told to use Bluetooth.

[Bulleidboy]

So what you are saying is that if I have two smart phones with the App loaded onto each phone, and I have two loco's both with HM7000 decoders and a different sound profile loaded into each loco, one on to each phone, they will not operate at the same time? I think that is what the op was asking if he could do?

[Fishmanoz]

Put it this way Slats - when your digital set turns up, leave the P9100 1Amp PSU and the adaptor cable in the box, they are not needed.

Instead, connect your Power Cab to the power track and you are ready to run, either DCC or Bluetooth by adjustment of CV12 via a single button press in the app.

EXCEPT - just doing as above will only allow Bluetooth operation with the app first up. The problem is the power track is analog not digital. To convert it, flip open the box (lever between the top and bottom of the box) with the spring connectors for your power connection and remove the small capacitor connected across the track connections. Now reassemble and you can operate both ways. Take careful note on reassembly when you first open the box as the springy connectors will likely pop out of their seats on opening (there are a couple of photos in older forum topics).

Now also note - with the exception of the power track conversion to digital by removing the capacitor, what I am telling you is exactly, I repeat exactly, the same as Paul has told you.

[P-Henny]

@BB

Read my reply posted on the previous page at 12:00 midday and edited at 12:31.

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Paul

I had read that, and fully understand what you are saying/explaining - there is a lot of faffing about changing the control of one loco from one smart phone to another - and why would you want to do it? The op initially asked about using two mobiles (smart devices) - so I assumed there would be a different loco loaded to each - one operated by the op and one by his son. I fully understand the op and son could not operate the same loco from two devices.

[96RAF]

@bb

You can operate all locos together. If per your example you have two app devices and two locos, one linked to each app and made active, then each app device operator runs their own loco.

The problem at present comes if you have both locos prior linked to each app then the methodology of swapping those locos between app devices is onerous for now, as any loco can only be active on one app device at a time.

Use this example:

Decoder A is in loco 1 and decoder B is in loco 2.

Loco 1 is active on app device A and loco 2 is active on app device B.

Loco 1 is inactive and delinked from app device B and loco 2 is inactive and delinked from app device A.

To hand over each loco control to the other app device means delinking and making inactive the active loco on one app device and making it active and re linking on the other app device. Repeat for the other loco.

The proposed fettle is for each loco to be pre-rostered and live on each app device, then switching control would be a simple button press to make that loco inactive on the handover device and active on the taking control device. This to prevent inadvertent control of any loco by both app devices at the same time.

[P-Henny]

@BB

I agree that the faffing about is not so much of an issue if the father & sons locos were always the same ones. I was giving advice on the basis that father & son appear to want to select control of locos in a more dynamic ad-hoc fashion. Given the mention also of visting friends taking control of locos in a later OP post, then the need for swapping control between devices in a more dynamic fashion for the OP seems to be a higher priority. Hence the tact my replies took that brought the NCE DCC Control option into the equation.

[Bulleidboy]

Thanks both Rob and Paul.

I knew the answer from the outset, but I think the Op's questions did leave a few "what if" questions, but I think everything has been covered so hopefully the Op will now be a little wiser.

[P-Henny]

Being Australia located and the time difference, I suspect the answer to that question (being wiser) will appear in the early hours.

[Slats]

@P-Henny

Thank you

I’m understand this I think.

What you saying is I simply wire up my new TT120 layout that I intend to have HM7000 decoder fitted locos on the same way I wired up my old N scale DCC layout. 

Connect my NCE DCC system to the track. 

Download the HM7000 app to my compatible smart device.

With the NCE DCC system on, put a loco with HM7000 on the track – configure it as per the instructions etc – making sure that it has an address for DCC.

To run the loco turn off the Bluetooth control on the smart device and select DCC.

On the NCE Powercab “select loco” via punching in the 4 digit address

And that’s it.

@Fishmanoz - not understanding what opening the box means - I'm not planning on using the power track at all. I was initially going to plug in Hornby's 15v power supply digital connector to the track (via as per the advice in the thread on "Queries of HM7000 power sources), a nylon terminal block connector.

[Fishmanoz]

Slats, of course you can if using a power bus but why would you if you have the Power Cab to connect. I would use it rather than the PSU just as I have using an Elite.

The box - what a digital set comes in. Or more correctly, the egg crate within the box.

[Slats]

@Fishmanoz

I’m not following you.

This removal of the small capacitor etc. Why is this necessary?

[Brew Man]

The small capacitor is connected across the two tracks. It is known as a suppression capacitor and is there to prevent potential spikes in the supply from causing radio interference to nearby devices and vice versa. It is a legacy device no longer necessary but was never removed from legislation. It's presence on a DCC layout can and probably will cause corruption of the DCC signal with obvious consequences. It is therefore necessary to remove it for reliable DCC operation.

[Slats]

@Brew Man

thanks - but where is this located? I'm not using any Hornby track at all. I'm using PECO.

[Fishmanoz]

Slats, if you are not using a power track or power clips to connect your supply, you do not have this problem.

Forget about it.

Have you read the Getting Started ….. sticky at the top of the General forum? That tells you all of the fundamentals that you don’t seem to be grasping yet.

[Slats]

@Fishmanoz

Yes - and I have read all the FAQs published too and manuals i.e. https://uk.hornby.com/hm7000/hm-dcc-guides