L&MR modelling

[Robert -372152]

Hello, Anyone know of any links to any layouts depicting the Liverpool & Manchester Railway in 00 scale circa 1820s to 1840s or so? I'm interested in building one over here in the USA where info on the line is available but jarder to find are specifics such as trackwork plan, what passenger and freight buildings which were along the right of way back then? I've purchased the Hornby Lion set and flatbed wagon sets so far from sellers in the UK and am thinking of modelling a section of the line closer to Manchester than Liverpool. Not sure how I'd go about representing the Whopping tunnel and its rope haul system so the Manchester end of the railway might be more "railroady" I guess? TY

[What About The Bee]

Hello Robert

Wapping Tunnel and its stationary engine were at the western¹ end of the line. Under Liverpool.

In so far as the eastern² end of the line, near Manchester, an excellent reference is Liverpool Road Station, Manchester by Fitzgerald. The track plan at the station is in that, along with the fiftyish turntables at the station.

There really isn't an authoritative track plan, but Ordnance Surveys do exist. Stephenson's survey is preserved, as are period images. 13 Colored Views of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway will give you a sense of appearances.

Bee

¹&² I had these switched. Thanks for the correction Brew Man

[Rana Temporia]

If you want to look at old British OS maps for the whole of the UK try googling the National Library of Scotland, I think NLSMaps will find them. Totally free unlike the rest of the UK, which for the other repositories is a bit pointless. There is everything right back to the 18:00s on there. Apparently the Scottish government decided that as the public had already paid for the production of the maps they should be free, how true it is I don’t know but it’s a fantastic resource.

[Aussie Fred]

That's interesting RT. When we toured the UK by train back in 2015, we went straight from London to Edinburgh with a 14 day rail pass, and spent 5 days just jumping on any train in Scotland to see where it went. Then we decided to get a "map" of England to see where we could next go and the response at 4 shops that sell maps was "If you want a map of England then go to England" - all their maps were just shaded grey under the border. We realised then we should have been wearing out Aussie hat (to show we were not English), it being just after the failed Independence referendum. Anyway we grabbed a train to the Lakes district then Shrewsbury where we went on to Wales - Fabulous train journeys there, then Cotswold districts (Love Midsomer Murders) and back to London to fly home. A wonderful train journey which started me on my model train hobby and why I have only British Rail trains.

[Rana Temporia]

For the Manchester end of the line you need the Manchester and Salford Sheet 32 surveyed in 1849 and published in 1851, all the turntables Bee refers to are clearly visible in Liverpool Road Station.

Aussie Fred, if you come to the UK again I think you can get the full OS App free for a short while which has all the up to date UK maps on it and works off GPS rather than the phone signal providing your smartphone can access it. I have had no problems using it in the far North of Scotland or down in Cornwall on my phone. I do pay an annual subscription direct to OS as it’s cheaper than going through the App Store, I think it’s about £25 a year and much better than having a box full of outdated tatty OS maps. As we do a lot of mountain walking, being able to pin point where you are if the cloud suddenly drops is great and although I usually still have a compass and map with me I hardly ever use them now.

I think there is a free version of the OS App with limited mapping information on it.

[What About The Bee]

Robert

The iconic LMR bridge is the skew bridge at Rainhill.

This bridge was at a significant angle to the rail. Constructed by the LMR. Further, the Rainhill Level is dead flat. Also the location of the Rainhill Trials.

Another iconic LMR bridge is the Sankey Viaduct.

Both are still standing today!

Bee

[What About The Bee]

The Bridgewater Foundry was in Patricroft, near Manchester. The Foundry specialized in the production of heavy machinery and locomotives. While it is not shown in the image, it is nearly certain that a siding went to the foundry itself, if only to get locomotives out.

The Bridgewater Canal was nearby, as was the Liverpool and Manchester railway. In this scene, the LMR crosses the Canal. The bridge itself consists of two asymmetric arches, one for the canal, another for the road beside it.

Of the LMR consists, I observe a passenger consist on the bridge itself. Given the presence of the Royal Mail carriage (last carriage, with guard), I would categorize this as a first class train. The other is luggage (freight), flat cars with tarpaulin. These would be stamped LPM RW, with LPM over RW, denoting Liver Pool Manchester Rail Way.

This scene offers a lot of visual interest, a water feature, a bridge with two arches, canal boats, a massive factory, and a double track mainline. We can see worker housing in the background.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

The previous images represent some of the grand structures on the LMR.  

Grandest Structures

There are two which would dwarf all but the grandest of layouts.  

One is the Lime Street Station in Liverpool. Established in 1836 to handle passenger traffic when it became evident that the Crown Street Station was inadequate.

The other is Victoria Station in Manchester, when it became clear that the Liverpool Road Station was inadequate. You may find an image of Victoria Station under "Railway Oddities". To put it in perspective, a scale Victoria Station in OO would be 11 feet long.

Smaller Structures

Perhaps a smaller structure would be more suitable for your layout, Robert. The predominant traffic was betwixt Liverpool and Manchester, but 'short fares' were also available. These meant you could get off or on at intermediate steps. Second Class consists were permitted the intermediate stops, First Class consists only stopped at Park Side for re-watering. We have an image of Park Side

We also have a wonderful image by Shaw, a known good observer of one of these smaller stops.

Note the flag pole at the station. A flag was elevated at the station to alert the enginemen that a passenger was to board. No flag meant no stopping. To be clear, there was no schedule at intermediate stops. The only schedule was the departure time from either Liverpool or Manchester. Arrival time was never published, particularly so for Second Class consists.

You may observe the guard in the foreground and the level crossing gates he was responsible for. Clearly, this is a very simple affair.

Newton Bridge was a slightly larger station. This viaduct remains standing to this very day (Mill Lane Viaduct, Newton le Willows) Fare from Liverpool to Newton Bridge, first class, was 3 shillings.

There are other major features of the LMR, but I am not certain you would want them on your layout. The Olive Mount cutting was up to 70 feet deep, and had just enough clearance for double track, the rails pinned directly to bedrock. That puts your locomotive and rolling stock in the bottom of a narrow canyon. 

Chat Moss was a bog. Pretty desolate, not much visual interest.

If you will kindly let me know where your fancy takes you Robert, I would be happy to present you with further images.

Bee

[Tony57]

Hi

Love the pictures, not sure if it's my eyes or not but several of the pictures the locos look they are on a broad gauge track whilst others look to be on a narrower gauge track which became the national standard width.

[atom3624]

Perhaps it's just the artist's lack of attention to detail wrt perspective, proportion and scale - no disrespect, but it was still a new experience for many.

Al.

[Brew Man]

Hello Robert

Wapping Tunnel and its stationary engine were at the eastern end of the line. Under Liverpool.

In so far as the western end of the line, near Manchester, an excellent reference is Liverpool Road Station, Manchester by Fitzgerald. The track plan at the station is in that, along with the fiftyish turntables at the station.

There really isn't an authoritative track plan, but Ordnance Surveys do exist. Stephenson's survey is preserved, as are period images. 13 Colored Views of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway will give you a sense of appearances.

Bee

Why is the eastern end at Liverpool? Last time I looked Liverpool was west of Manchester.

 

 

[What About The Bee]

Hello Brew Man

Good catch. Liverpool is the western end of the line. Fixing that! No idea why I flipped them over.

Tony,

Not only does it appear that the gauges switch but the sizes of the locomotives grow and shrink. Some artists did seem to have an issue with proportions when it came to unfamiliar mechanisms

Bee

[What About The Bee]

There is a subtlety in fare structure and consists which may confuse the casual observer of the LMR.

1st Class Trains

Have only '4 inside' (Royal Mail) and '6 inside' carriages. 6 inside are the yellow, windowed carriages. The number refers to the number of passengers per cabin.

Blue 2nd class carriages were not on 1st class trains. 1st class trains stopped only at Park Side for water and fuel.

In modern parlance, these would be considered Express Trains.

2nd Class Trains

Did offer 6 inside carriages, but are referred to as 'glass carriages' in the fare structure. 4 inside (Royal Mail) was not available. Blue 2nd class carriages were referred to as 'open carriages'.

In modern parlance, these would be considered Local Trains.

It was possible, therefore, to ride in a 1st class, 6 inside, glass carriage on a 2nd class train. Conversely, you could never ride in an open 2nd class carriage on a 1st class train.

Further Confusion

For the well to do, service was available for your personal horse drawn carriage. A roll on, roll off service on specially constructed flatbed. Not the standard flatbed. These are depicted with the passengers traveling in their horse drawn carriage, with the train underway. The fare, just for the carriage, was 20 shillings for 4 wheeled and 15 shillings for 2 wheeled personal carriages. Additional fees for the horses.

Bee

[Tony57]

Hi Bee,

I wonder it the same artists were painting Gods Wonderful Railway during the same time period, as the GWR under Brunel was built as a 7foot Broad Gauge track with Locos and rolling stock at the same track size, it could explain the size difference.

It sort of asks the question how many other tracks laid were of a broader gauge during the early period of the railways in the UK.

[What About The Bee]

Hello Tony

I gave your question a bit of thought before answering. Of necessity, some of my answer will be opinion based. I will take care to note that as we go.

Most images of the LMR are from the early days, during the period of broad experimentation. We have Rocket, Planet, Experiment and Patentee. Soaring architectural works like the Sankey Viaduct, completed before opening day in 1831. By about 1838, however, the experimental period had ended. Rail type was settled. Engine types were either 2-2-2 or 0-4-2, of the Bird class. The Edge Hill Engine works took over all engine production. The public excitement over railways had moved on to other architectural wonders, other exciting railway developments. The public deliriously underwent Railway Mania. Other railways, other pictures, other architecture. One very notable image of the late period of the LMR is the image of Victoria Station from 1844. Similarly the soaring Lime Street Station in Liverpool, both were great architectural works.

The GWR was established in 1838. Brunel acquired engines from Robert Stephenson & Co, "North Star" springs to mind.

Now my opinion is that there is little to no overlap of depictions of the two railways. There are very few images of the LMR, post 1838. The GWR is all post 1838. Whilst it is possible that an artist who drew images of the LMR went on to create images of the GWR, this does not align with the supposition that imagery of the GWR affected LMR imagery. So my opinion is no, depictions of the GWR did not influence depictions of the LMR.

I do stand ready to be corrected. I am not infallible, in fact, far from it.

Bee

[Robert -372152]

Thanks to everyone for the info....there is so much to learn about the L&MR and all very early UK railways in general. Much Appreciated.