another faulty motor

[Rallymatt]

Dave, this is disturbing news. A1, A4 and shunter have all failed?

[P-Henny]

The common denominator between Curly52 and Busker Dave is both using Guagemaster branded controllers. This could be a significant development piece of info.

[Rallymatt]

I just searched Gaugemaster Q controller motor failure, it seems there are known faults causing locos to be inactive. It may not be the same but as Paul says, it’s seems a common denominator that could benefit from further investigation. Gaugemaster have a lifetime warranty and great customer service so worth the call

[Dave the Busker]

My Dad's a retired physics teacher and much better with electrics than me. He's going to have a look at the layout and see if he can spot anything that seems off. The A1 and A4 died last week, and Hornby have replaced the motors. A4 running perfectly. A1 runs but not smoothly. 08 died tonight after stalling on points and there's a burnt out smell from the motor.

[Rallymatt]

Really disappointed to hear this Dave. Might be worth having a word with Gaugemaster about getting controlled checked. Bizarre to have 3 failures all so close together but purely be down to motors. 🙁

[moawkwrd]

It’s no wonder Hornby aren’t doing too well financially when they’re spending all this time and energy fixing products that it’s looking more and more likely have been damaged by a controller made by a third party. Hats off to them for the service but it’s got to have a cumulative effect on the bottom line.

[Fishmanoz]

Don’t forget Curly’s problems started when he was using the Easterner set controller, then he switched to Gaugemaster.

And still just 2 users reporting this, out of how many?

[SteveM6]

There have been stories circulating for some years regarding spikes on some Gaugemaster DC controllers causing motors to fail.

If this is still a ‘thing’ could it be that TT motors, presumably being smaller and potentially more delicate, are more susceptible to damage from older designs where protection circuitry may be less sensitive?

I know that’s not very scientific but it’s a train of thought that could be worth investigating.

In the meantime, I would recommend sending the controllers back to Gaugemaster for a thorough checkup under their guarantee scheme. Nothing to lose by getting that done.

[Hobby11]

There have been stories circulating for some years regarding spikes on some Gaugemaster DC controllers causing motors to fail.

 

 

Have there? Do you have a link to your source?

I've been using them for decades and never had any spikes, they've controlled a variety of locos with all sorts of motor types including coreless Z and N gauge ones perfectly.

[SteveM6]

An online search will throw up a few examples - two forum members have done similar searches. Additionally spike issues were identified in the early month since of HM7K.

As you said @hobby you have used GM controllers for years with no issues - is that not the same as the many new TT120 who have no issues with their setup.

However the occasional faulty controller/motor/decoder will show itself and I would suggest that these failures, if they are isolated examples, are likely just within the expected failure rate for those products.

What is odd is when an individual user reports the same problem across a number of different locos and/or decoders. To me, that points to an external cause to the issue. I find it improbable that any given customer will receive a consistent supply of faulty locos.

As has been said before, look for the common denominator in any reports of repeat issues and investigate - that’s ‘Troubleshooting 101’.

In this case we have two users reporting similar multiple failures and both are using Gaugemaster DC controllers, some of which have been shown to cause issues due to spikes despite your skepticism. Consequently my advice still stands - send the controller back to GM for a free checkup. If nothing else it will help to eliminate one of the many variables.

[Dave the Busker]

I've just spoken to Gaugemaster on the phone and they've agreed to take the controller in to examine it. I don't know if it's something wrong with mine (bought second hand and I don't know how old, so it's possible) or if I've been incredibly unlucky with Hornby motors.

[SteveM6]

I've just spoken to Gaugemaster on the phone and they've agreed to take the controller in to examine it. I don't know if it's something wrong with mine (bought second hand and I don't know how old, so it's possible) or if I've been incredibly unlucky with Hornby motors.

 

 

At least you will know one way or another.

Dave, when you get it back could you report back on the forum so we can relay the results back to the team at Hornby?

Thanks

[Simon-372339]

A few observations etc.

Chassis replaced- seems a bit drastic if its a motor problem, qc problems wheels not quartered correctly?

They all seem to use 3 pole motors - more susceptible to stall at low speeds?

Does the gaugemaster cut out if the loco is manually stalled?

[Rallymatt]

It can be a lot quicker and all encompassing to swap out a built up chassis and thus cheaper for Hornby and better for customer.

Only the centre axle is driven so wheel and Quartering is not applicable, damaged rods can jam a mechanism though. I had a loco delivered with clear damage to valve gear, that obviously was never going to go.

The Gaugemaster controllers will deliver power in a short/stall for a very short time according to accounts given by others on various forums.

[Hobby11]

Actually SteveM6, the motor fault occurred with both the Hornby and GM controller with the OP, so not as clear cut as you like to make it out! Anyhow we'll see what GM say.

[Going Spare]

To my mind, it would have been even better if Curly52 had also contacted Gaugemaster, as I prompted some while back, to see in the light of the new posting whether there might be an obscure common factor affecting some/all of their controllers when used with Hornby's TT motors.

[Rallymatt]

Entirely feasible there are different things going on. I have had 2 motors fail (WW) on DCC (10 hours running), so we know sometimes they do expire as anything can. And then switching to a different controller has introduced another issue.

I mentioned before that small can motors are utilising wiper contacts instead of traditional carbon brushes, it’s not established if the TT:120 motor is of that type, but I would expect it is not as resilient when receiving a less than ideal current.

[Dave the Busker]

Am I right in thinking most of the forthcoming models are going to have 5 pole motors instead of the 3 pole that are in the current ones? If motors are a part of the problem, are 5 poles more likely to be reliable?

[ntpntpntp]

@Dave as far as I'm concerned the number of poles doesn't make any difference to durability - but if anything I'd say for the same size of motor they're probably using thinner wire in a 5 pole motor so more likelyhood of burn-out if too much current.

[Fishmanoz]

Actually SteveM6, the motor fault occurred with both the Hornby and GM controller with the OP, so not as clear cut as you like to make it out! Anyhow we'll see what GM say.

 

 

Hobby, are you and I the only ones remembering this? See my post at the top of page 9 and elsewhere.

Splitting this problem over 2 threads hasn’t helped. I’m very much for not putting 2 problems in one thread but the reverse is equally problematic.

[Hobby11]

I think we are, trouble is there are so many posts on both threads it's easy to lose track! One of the downsides of this forum is that they can't combine threads, nor lock them, either of which, if done early enough, would have helped!

Never mind! :)

I also forgot to add that not only has the fault outlined by Curly happened with two different controllers but also with multiple locos! If it'd been happening across many people's locos I'd have agreed there was a QC issue but I know several of you have dozens of locos and no issues so I'm still tempted to say the issue is either an individual one (i.e. something wrong at their end, such as a layout or electric supply issue we don't know about) or they've both been extremely unlucky!

Lord knows which it is, though!

[ColinB]

Generally spikes don't usually have enough energy in them to cause damage, definitely not to a motor. When I first started working with microprocessors when I looked at the data and address bus they were ringing like a bell but it never seemed to upset anything. A motor is inductive so it generates spikes anyway. Given how many people use Gaugemaster controllers I would have thought there would be a lot more complaints than there are.

[Dave the Busker]

I've not sent the controller back to Gaugemaster just yet, as my retired Physics teacher dad was free to come over today and take a look at it. He's checked it over for voltage and current draws and can't see anything out of the ordinary with the controller or how I've wired it up. Suspects duff motors. I'll still send it off to Gaugemaster for them to give it a once over just in case we've missed something.

[P-Henny]

It really takes an Oscilloscope to accurately assess the controller output, because a normal multimeter measuring latency is too slow.

[Dave the Busker]

Aye, I'll get it off to Gaugemaster soon for a more precise check. At least for a start I know nothing is wildly out of normal operations.