Atlantics Only

[The son of Triangman]

Well guys here's the question?

What Atlantics would you like to see Hornby make?

[Ozexpatriate]

The son of Triangman said:

Well guys here's the question?

What Atlantics would you like to see Hornby make?

I already have the one I want. The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha by Fox Valley Models.

I presume that someone will

mention the LBSCR H2, 4-4-2 'Brighton Atlantic'. It was the most popular Southern Railway locomotive in the MREmag poll.

[81F]

Ozexpatriate said:

The son of Triangman said:

Well guys here's the question?

What Atlantics would you like to see Hornby make?
I already have the one I want. The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha by Fox Valley Models.

I presume

that someone will mention the LBSCR H2, 4-4-2 'Brighton Atlantic'. It was the most popular Southern Railway locomotive in the MREmag poll.

[81F]

A GWR deGlen would be a nice model (particularly as they were Oxford engines) although it is possibly too early and with only three I can see it might not be a good commercial choice. Alternatively a GW SWcott class Atlantic though a Saint 460 would make

more sense again because of the limited period they were in 442 form.

A great Northern Atlantic (Henry Oakley?) might be a more commercial example - how different are they from a Brighton Atlantic?

[LCDR]

GNR 251 is closer.

[The son of Triangman]

Quite close in design to a Brighton Atlantic, I believe Marsh once worked for Ivatt. Washout plugs in different places, odd cosmetic differences but much the same as an Ivatt atlantic. In fact the new Brighton atlantic has an Ivatt atlantic boiler found

in the 1980's.

[forester]

Put me down for a Brighton Atlantic.
It's surprising it hasn't been produced before now.
I'm certain it would be a success, given the interest in the Southern these days and the construction of a new one.

[LCDR]

The Marsh and Ivatt products were so similar I guess careful mould design would allow both to be modelled.

[The son of Triangman]

Found this snippet in a tatty bit of the remains of an old 1905 magazine yesterday, might be interesting?? "Douglas Earle-Marsh formerly of the GNR, sucessor to R J Billington of the LBSCR, unveiled today his new non-superheated H1 Class Atlantic similar

in design to locomotives by his former employer H A Ivatt of the GNR.

The H1 class locomotive is a very handsome machine with 18 1/2 x 26 cylinders, 6ft 7.5 inch driving wheels, boiler pressure of 200 psi and a Tractive Effort of 22,250lb, a class of

5 locomotives are to be built by Kitsons."

So I agree wholeheartedly, the mould could make both Ivatt and Marsh Atlantics.

[Postman Prat]

Care would have to be taken with the design of the moulds, for example the cab and the footplate are both different

Nonetheless, the boiler appears to be common to both. If it's good enough for the Bluebell..........!!

The son of Triangman

said:

Found this snippet in a tatty bit of the remains of an old 1905 magazine yesterday, might be interesting?? "Douglas Earle-Marsh formerly of the GNR, sucessor to R J Billington of the LBSCR, unveiled today his new non-superheated H1 Class Atlantic

similar in design to locomotives by his former employer H A Ivatt of the GNR.

The H1 class locomotive is a very handsome machine with 18 1/2 x 26 cylinders, 6ft 7.5 inch driving wheels, boiler pressure of 200 psi and a Tractive Effort of 22,250lb, a

class of 5 locomotives are to be built by Kitsons."

So I agree wholeheartedly, the mould could make both Ivatt and Marsh Atlantics.

[The son of Triangman]

Totally agree Postman, with good mould design both models could be made. The only realy difference in the boiler is the different postions of the washout plugs, purists may find that too compromising.

The cab and footplate could be a detachable

single piece unit, giving both models.

[the ferret]

The son of Triangman said:

Well guys here's the question?

What Atlantics would you like to see Hornby make?

Hi son Of Triangman, this is such a hard question. If you start with the L.M.S. this was very much a 4-4-0 railway with

the Johnsons and the Midland Deeley Compounds. The LNER is more a possible with the Ivatt Atlantics. My great, great uncle John Absolon was a King's Cross driver who drove both Stirling singles and then later, Ivatt Atlantics. As for the Great Western, their

Atlantics always looked very ungainly and "cobbled together" and could not match the sheer gracefulness of Ivatt's beautiful engines. But finally, being a Southern enthusiast myself, I must agree that the Brighton Atlantics were the most successful Atlantics

with Ivatt's coming a close second. The Atlantic was, to my mind, a stop-gap between the 4-4-0 and the 4-6-0. Bigger engines were needed about the time of world war one as the old six wheel coaches were replaced with the heavier bogie coaches and freight trains

were beginning to get up to a hundred wagons long that meant a thousand tons in a single train. As express passenger trains began to approach 600 tons tare the 4-4-0 and Atlantic designs were relegated to secondary duties and 4-6-0 and Pacifics became the

norm for express passenger work.

[The son of Triangman]

It is a difficult one to be sure. There's the North British Atlantics too and the L&Y Highflyers both handsome loco classes.

[flyingfox4475]

I would like a Super Heated GNR Ivatt Atlantic. or NER Atlantic both in LNER Apple Green

[Postman Prat]

I'll settle for the NER one, either class V or Z, massive brutes!!

[mortehoe]

Being a Southern fan it would have to be an H2, although my fave Atlantic is the Milwaukee Road class A, as is some one else s like. The Atlantic wheel arrangement has never looked right to me,
it came about when there was a greater need for increased

engine output, and designers were horrified to find out that adding an extra driven axle, didn't always have the desired effect.

[malB]

Of course there were also Altantic tanks on both the LNER & Southern in both case "inherited" from the Great Northern & Great Central for the LNER and LB&SCR & LSWR for the Southern the LSW engines being the Adams Radial tanks one of which survives on

the Bluebell. Though roll on any Atlantic especially if they can make as many parts as possible compatible from a production point of view to keep costs down.

[LCDR]

The Atlantic was in truth a design disaster. The Great Western tried them but settled for a 'ten wheeler' instead, converting those they had built to 4-6-0 configuration. They were OK on light fast trains but little better than a 'modern' 4-4-0. The GNR(I)

V 'Bird', the D49 'Hunt' & 'Shire' and SR V 'Schools' classes demonstrated that the 4-4-0 could be better than an Atlantic if properly designed, and because there was more weight on the driving wheels more sure footed too. The wheel arrangement worked better

under a tank engine, but the trailing axle was more of a hinderance than an asset under a tender locomotive.

I am a supporter of the Brighton H2 fund, but I recognise that they were nowhere as good as the N15s that came after - Wrong but Wromantic.

[malB]

Whilst the Atlantic may have been a disater, they were I feel a useful step in the design evolution between the 4-4-0s and Pacifics. What's more in their twilight year the LNER [GN at least large boilered engines] carved out quite a niche for themselves

on some of the Pullman Flyers or as stand-in's on the crack express' such as the Silver Jubilee especially if they [the former GN engines] replaced the booked A4 round say Doncaster or Peterborough. OK the train may be late but those old Ivatt's held their

own on the point to point timings.

[mortehoe]

Maybe I should start a new thread, 4-4-0's only. I have taken a step back, I said yes to a Brighton Atlantic, but what about the mainstay of passenger duties the 4-4-0. As much as I love the original Bullieds ( 35007 and 34094 ). If I was to be lucky,

and have a full size steamer built, it would be a flip of a coin between a Midland 990, or a Southern L1.
The L&NWR, Midland, ran a small engine policy, and they worked wonders. The companies that made up the Southern had numerous 4-4-0 loco's, then dare

I say it the L&NER inherited numerous classes. I'll take an Atlantic, but lets have some more 4-4-0's.

[The son of Triangman]

The advantge the Atlantics had over a 4-4-0 was the space for a goood sized firebox to increase steam production and give more power over the bog standard 4-4-0. Other than that as has been said they were more of a design dead end.

[LCDR]

And yet the D49 and the Vs (GNR(I) and SR) were not shy steamers (nor were the Maunsell D1 and E1 rebuilds either). It is significant that many companies never had Atlantics or only built a few. A lot of companies went straight from the 4-4-0 to 4-6-0.

The space between the middle and rear drivers being sufficient to accomodate a good sized grate and six wheels transmitting power.

[mortehoe]

LC&DR I am surprised at you sir !!!!!!. The leap from 4-4-0 to 4-6-0 was not straight forward, as Mr Drummond found to the cost of his reputation and the L&SWR. His only real success was the T14, which Mr Maunsell improved ( both types I rather like ),

he then built the D15 an out standing loco ( 4-4-0 ). The deGlenn Atlantics if I remember correctly were compounds, and the GWR wanted to compare them with ( curse my library going up in smoke ) with the Star Class ?????.
The Atlantic appears to have been

a stop gap, until the 4-6-0 came on line, but if you talked to a South Eastern section driver, who needs a 4-6-0 when you have a D,E,E1,D1, or an L1.
I would still have a Southern H1 if Hornby produced one.

[The son of Triangman]

Yes indeed a lot of the 4-4-0's were not shy steamers I agree, but the advantage the atlantic had with a big firebox was more steam production for higher speed running and in theory heavier work. 4-4-0's tended to be limited in the size and shape of the

firebox that would fit between the frames whereas the Atlantic wheelbase meant a more easily made wider firebox with less restricitons on it's size and design could be made.

However Atlantics were as has been said more of a stop gap measure until the

4-6-0 became popular.

[LCDR]

Notwithstanding the GWR firmly nailed its flag to the 4-6-0 and narrow firebox, and most commentators consider that they were the best locomotives ever made, and compared favourably with American practice too. The Castle must rank as the finest express

passenger ever made (well at least until the Jarvis rebuilds of the Merchant Navy appeared in 1956). It must be significant that in 1947 there were 2503 4-6-0s, and 1615 4-4-0s handed to BR, but only 62 4-4-2s. Only the LNER and SR in fact still had any Atlantics.

If eminent people like Holcroft are to be believed it was GWR practice that reigned supreme during the first half of the 20th Century. The practices of Swindon being adopted by the SECR, and thus ultimately the SR via Maunsell, and the LMS via Stanier. Only

Gresley seemed to go his own way,and even then there were trials with Castles on the LNER which had some influence on features adopted on his Pacifics.

It is certainly true that the 4-4-0 was an excellent machine in the right hands, Sam Gingell of

'the Lane' was renown for feats of strength and speed with the E1s and D1s. These engines had benefitted from good practice introduced to Ashford from Swindon in respect of steam passages and valves.