Inclines

[AndyHead78]

Hello again,

I've been looking at several different plans online to get ideas for an L-shaped layout. I'd like to include sections on two levels if possible, with the upper level about 4 to 5 inches above the main baseboard. As a general rule of thumb is there a ratio of track length to inches raised I should be working to? As I mentioned in a previous post I have approximately 20 ft along one length and 10 ft on the other to play with.

Many thanks...

[Flashbang]

Hi

Yes there is a recommended minimum and that is 1 in 30. i.e. For every 1 inch of rise the length needs to be 30 inches. Replace inches with mm or cm etc. 

A less steep slope is better if room permites. Don't forget that if curved track is involved in the incline then the drag caused by the curve increases the load on the loco when it's pulling carriages or wagons. So you then need to reduce the incline slope to 1 in 40 or 1 in 50.

[poliss]

This article recommends "track gradients 2% or below is a good rule of thumb."

http://blog.model-train-help.com/

[gilbo2]

Blimey, at 2% you would need quite a big layout to get up and down again?

[LCDR]

A lot will also depend upon how long your train is, what type of locomotive will be used and whether the loco will get a run at the gradient. I built a layout some years ago which had a 'folded figure 8' round the outside of a room 12' by 12'.  The hidden sidings were beneath the station and the lines looped down from each end of the station to enter the fiddle yard with a junction where the two sets of lines passed.  I had hoped to operate 2+5 car HST sets, but it was not a success. I eventually replaced the Hornby power car with a pair of Lima ones which just about worked but the irregular performance with a power car at either end resulted in frequent derailments.

Nowadays I avoid gradients 'like the plague!'.

[Gregd99]

I have an incline that rises about 8cm (3.1") over a run of about 1.5m (4.5').

8cm is sufficient for me to run trains under and over. if you are looking for a rise of 4-5 inches then you will be looking at 6' or more I would think.

[Michael_A]

Hmm 2% is 1 in 50. Maybe in an ideal world, but you would need 250 inches, more than 20 feet, to achieve 5 inch height! If you are fortunate enough to be able to do that, well I'm rather envious then. ;)

Even at 1 in 30  you will need 150 inches, more than 12 feet, to achieve 5 inches height.

From personal experience, I agree with LC&DR (unless you fancy the idea of banking locos). I also agree with avoiding anything other than very gentle gradients on curves.

I guess if you rae running things like 1 coach autotrains, 2 or 3 car DMU's etc you might get away with 1:30 or steeper, but you can cause yourelf a lot of grief and spoil the fun if you build a gradient that is then troublesome. Better to do without.

I bulit instead a high level end to end section that crossed the base track. Great fun as I have to do loco run rounds at each end to send the train back again!

 

 

 

[Blackbird]

It should be remembered that inclines for cross-overs can be halved by taking the lower track down as well as the upper track up. When designing a layout with cross-overs, don't start from a flat base principle, railways go down as well as up. This is a prototypical application.

[Augustus Caesar]

So, all this in mind guys I am building a layout on an 8 foot square basis with a width of two feet. Four feet square in the middle is open for operational purposes.

In model terms the incline I need will have to be no longer than five feet but in reality the scale I have to come up with is impossible... If you take the height of a 12 ton van from the lower track and draw a line from its highest point to where the incline ends on the upper track it would all have to fit within that 5 foot rise!!! So, I would have to drop that incline so what would be the best scale for that if you can work it out?

The loco to be used is a Hornby Class 31 weathered BR blue to pull such wagons and one break van. A shunter (from kit form) is used on the higher levels. The loco (Class 31) was never allowed on the upper level so will push only to get the trucks on there and the shunter (Ruston & Hornsby Rowntrees No3) will finish the job by hauling the load. The maximum load for the trucks would be about 12 or so.

What sort of max incline could I use there then? Sorry to tax your brains guys but any info would help. All DCC with RM E-Link for operations...

[Rog RJ]

Your best option is to get a length of wood and fit some track to it temporarily and prop it up and test what incline will work for you.  The class 31 has good haulage power but 12 wagons may be a problem on the type of incline you are thinking about.

[3generations]

Oh help!  Inclines and gradients - again!   Anyone want to comment on this story??   My local model railway shop sold me some sets of pre-formed polystyrene inclines.  They are ingeniously part cut vertically, so they can be eased round e.g. First or Second radius curvea giving a uniform gradient and curve.   Good to use.  Our layout is ambitious about hills and valleys, so I bought some 4% pre-set inclines, (1 in 25), copied some on to insulation board to make more, and built all the trackways with them, topped with 5mm foam board.   Using circles with an external diameter of 110cms., and similar ovals, I was able to take continuous double track, via spirals under and over itself, partly to go inside mountains, from zero to max 40 cms. at the highest point (mountain village).     But now - help!  I read that although a few modellers have forced the odd train up 1in 20, nobody recommends anything steeper than 1 in 30 and many advise 1 in 40 or 1 in 50 for curves, 1 in 50 being the trouble-free gradient for any layout.   Why does a company market a 4% gradient for track use, if that is too steep for most trains?  Incidentally, that company defines 4% (1 in 25) as 4 inches in 8 feet, which is actually 1 in 24:  so do they really know what they are doing ??  Now I shall have to modify all the trackways and indeed all the working heights, to 1 in 30 max, and perhaps 1 in 40 or 1 in 50 round the curves, in order to have trouble free train operation.   This is a tough call, as I am retired, and - as any willing and active retired person knows - there’s never as much spare time as when I was at work!  I don’t have a choice do I ?  

[Chrissaf]

 I don’t have a choice do I ?

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Not really.

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Why does a company market a 4% gradient for track use, if that is too steep for most trains?

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What brand are these inclines?

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They may have been brought to market by the manufacturer some time ago (and not subsequently updated) when models were heavier and had magnahesion with steel based rails. It is these older model technologies that could handle steeper gradients. Modern rolling stock, is lighter and modern track use non magnetic 'Silver Nickle' (NS). Thus magnahesion doesn't work on NS rails.

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TIP: As this is your very first post, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[81F]

 On my layout a 20' x 0' circit the ruling gradient was supposed to be 1:60 on the mainline but errors in build and an un even floor means this is probably about 1:50. while the branch is probably about 1:30 but with a number 3 curve. (the mainline curves is 6' diameter minimum.

 

To avoid my mainline/bachmann painiers from slipping on the branch, trains are limited to 5 wagons though my hornby pecket 0-4-0 can push more!

 

On the mainline my trains are generally limited to five coaches or 14 wagons but some of my locos require banking on the steepest slope, so I will sometimes have to reduce the formation down to four coaches particularly with my 4-4-0 Counties (Railroad chassis). My single will only pull 3 coaches (Graham Farrish 00). It used to be able to pull four short hornby clerestories until I fitted interiors but has always sruggled with the heavier long clearstories.

[LCDR]

Gradients have always been problematical. Many years ago and in all innocence I built a layout which was a folded figure of 8. There was some storage sidings concealed under a station and the track climbed out of these all round the room climbing to the station and at the place where the two gradients met on the same level there was a series of junctions which allowed trains from the station to return to the station without going down into the storage siding. The layout was built round the walls of an attic about ten feet by ten feet so the gradients were not excessively steep, but what I had failed to take into account was that they were also on fairly tight curves (about 24 inch radius or less) . 

 

Needless to say I never really got a passenger train to make the full circuit without some assistance from a 12 inch to the foot hand! All our rolling stock in those days was blue & grey carriages hauled by blue main line diesels, and included an HST set by Hornby and another by Lima. These we hoped would be 2 x 5 sets but the only way I could get them to negotiate the gradients was to put both power cars on one train. Differences in performance of the two power cars also resulted in frequent derailments. 

 

I vowed never to rely on gradients again.

[atom3624]

It would always be preferred to mount an incline in a straight line where possible - not always the room to permit this I know.

 

Al.

[Phil_Spiegel.]

My loft layouts have had inclines: The current version uses about 10m around the outside of the layout on 2 sides to provide a spacing of 20cm - using a reliable 2% grade made with Woodlands scenics inclines which provide continuous support whilst not adding extra weight !  (But do put a 'top layer' on over the zig zag before you lay the track - with the material depending on how you secure your track  (I use Copydex - no track pins)

 

However - even that incline 'ends' with a 180+ degree bend to turn the trains round to reach the storage area in front of the incline...  so, it might have been better, overall, to use a HELIX which would allow ANY HEIGHT CHANGE in the same surface area:   

 

On our Portable Scandinavian Layout ( 3 levels x 5.4m x 1.5m using lightweight aluminum tube and XPS foam construction ) DOES  use a 3.5 turn helix with Y-junctions at the top and the bottom allowing trains to enter/leave in either clockwise or anticlockwise directions, AND for a train to start on (for example) the Top level, run down through the helix (optionally bypassing the middle level ) to the lower level and back up without stopping ... and to spend time looping on each level if so desired.

 

 

A Helix may seem daunting, and difficult to draw or construct ( but kits in laser cut wood are available)) but they do exactly what is wanted in a height change - as much as needed, whilst also giving the trains a longer run.  One turn rises by 8-10cm  [10cm needed if using or considering overhead electrification - to avoid losing pantographs on supports !!!]  Using large radius set-track or Tracksetta curves and a track-bender to avoid kinks.   2 x Pi x r = circumference ... so r=500mm one turn is 3.142 metres long  10cm = 0.1m height change =  3.1%.    ( My helix uses  r=511mm RocolGEOline strack )

With modern heavy chassis locos a full length train can handle the gradient - even on a continuous bend without a problem.  An IORE loco hauls a 3m long  Iron Ore train up and down it, but single locos have no difficulty with their normal trains. 

 

A good height change allows each level to have its own scenery - effectively doubling the layout size without doubling the area it occupies.  The old 'continuous loop' idea of running several times around between stops is improved by running round on a dedicated level.

 

 The 4% is a standard Woodlands Scenic Product and still current.    Locos CAN still operate on this kind of incline - but not neccessarily full length trains cauled by a Terrier ! or on a tight curve.

 

Don't expect a lightweight 'Railroad' loco to pull a 6+ coach rake ---- without reverting to the 'modern equivalent' of Magnadhesion® .... as used by Busch on their H0f models (6.5mm gauge) or Powerbase® from DCC Concepts .... in which magnets are attached to the loco, and a trip of steel placed BELOW the track.