hosh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I am really left shaking my head, why did Hornby raise hopes so long ago to leave customers dangling in mid air for so long. To watch the market?To keep people interested in Hornby LD and not go elsewhere?I think it could come back and bite their bum so to speak! Exactly! Great marketing - the realm of slackers that can't produce anything that can market itself via word of mouth. This company is a dinosaur. It's customer base should be used in studies of misplaced loyalty! I'll bet there's a whole bunch of inherrited wealth at play calling the shots (blanks). As we all know, part of this threaad or another went MIA a few months back because it no doubt pointed out the hopeless shortcomings of their present LD system - just embarrassing! So that's about 15 years overdue and counting (and I'm being kind!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Planned for 2017 and using different technology (that had been previously planned). Apparantly will allow other features - which the Hornby representitive did not elaborate on. Adam We are fast approaching the Season of Goodwill to all men (and woman) but, it always seems to be the season when people get upset easily. Sometimes understandably. If these comments are correct and we have no reason at this stage to believe they are not... surely Hornby should come forward and confirm this, Hornby/HRMS were the ones who have encouraged us to talk about Loco Detection, they have also included items in RM in readiness for its launch. Surely they are aware of the excitement created and the damage they can do to the company name if this is correct. Can you please refer this to your manager or a person in a suitable position to reply to the concerns, there will no doubt be a few upset members. If the above is correct we feel mislead and used which is certainly not good for a company with a good past reputation trying to rebuild itself after a difficult period. Customer Service comes to mind. Dampening the flame before it gets too hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Caesar Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 HI PJ...Sorry to hear about your family and the issues you mention. My own mother in law had a form of dementia which meant she couldn't look at the TV news readers or similar because she thought they were talking DIRECTLY to her. Magazine pics with folk looking direct at the camera had her turning the magazine photo down on the table because she thought they were trying to get into her home!! Not nice and although it is never what you want but it was a blessing for her to pass away although still very hurtful.Anyway... I took the words exactly as you meant them... and yes, some could be taken aback but we cannot stop making light of things for just a few souls who don't agree with it. I have been involved with this stuff too as you have so maybe when we are so close to it we can lighten our lives with a few words like that. We know what level it is meant to be taken. No reason for anyone to take that out of context and we'll no doubt keep our spirits up likewise in the future on here. I will add that when some folk say that LD will be around at some stage, say 2017 as mentioned, and that this was heard from a representative 'in the know' then that detail is something that should not really be put out there. It is not cast in stone and is a safe few words to offer up to someone who asks about it. By the time 2017 comes around it is probably a safe bet LD will be here... or scrapped for a better system.I now hear all of you shouting at the computer and telling me to say how I know it is a fair bet LD will be here by 2017... :-)No idea :-) ... but I do know that is a safe bet... don't ask!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hornby have a duty to confirm if what is stated on the forum, as stated by a Hornby representative, is true. I say this due to the fact that Hornby have for at least a year encouraged members to discuss LD on the forum, probably genuine at the time but it could also be classes as milking ideas for their own benefit and gain. We have had the carrot dangled in our faces, they have made sure we are hungry for it, then they take it out of reach for another long period of time. Is this good customer service? Best give them chance to reply before commenting further I think. I sent the message to Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Caesar Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Mayby he will reply with something 'concrete' then... we live in hope......and sometimes despair. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 We have lived in hope for several years AC, hope not based on our direct wishes but based on information provided by Hornby/HRMS to encourage us that LD was 'coming soon' We wait patiently for a realistic reply from Hornby, confirmation of whether what we are told has been said by an Hornby representative, is true or false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Is that another word you have included AC? Loco Dispair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireman_Ian Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 "Let Down" the way we all feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Brilliant answer Fireman_Ian The message is clear and we haven't had official confirmation on here yet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 My theory -I think Hornby have tried to make an LD system for everyone and have thus failed. By "everyone" I mean people other than those looking to do a fairly serious layout with blocks. And so we have things like tags that can tell you what train it is, what direction it's going, etc. With a computer controlled system all of that is redundant. All that a computer system with software worth more than 5 cents needs is a simple notification that something just entered Block A - that's it. And that's also as cheap and as non-problematic as the system can be also.It seems Hornby were shooting for more than just detection - they were going for transponding as well i.e. feedback about which train it was, what direction and speed. This was going to require tags, IR, etc. Costly, dust collecting and completely unnecessary.All they need is simple block detection - I hope they wake up to that soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hi hosh If you want block detection there are plenty of systems avaialable to do this but, you will need to isolate every section of track to separate the blocks (easy if you are starting from scratch). LD in itself is not that complicated, certainly not as complicated as RM. As you say LD was aimed at all levels, block control can be simulated but you don't have to do it. Speed control and stopping may be more important to many especially near stations and in sidings. A block detection system will only ensure certain sections of your track are live or not, linked with points and signals.This would be less problamatic than LD but with less control. LD on the other hand would offer more control for the user but we would always have to ensure sensors are 'totally clean' and not obstructed in any way. The tags would need to be carefully fitted (this might not be as easy as we first think) they must not catch on anything rub or get damaged. LD (when it comes) will offer more control but there are more factors to be careful with or could cause frustrations. For some the system will enhance our layouts and control of our trains, other people however may feel LD is unneccessary but if so they will not want to purchase it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Just a little more LD speculation - from what has been said lately about likely delay and previously by Hornby about a eureka moment, I think Hornby started out to produce LD with a proprietry bus, then decided to go with the latest NMRA LCC bus. Doing this will give them clear longer term benefits for greater DCC capability beyond current RM and LD. The problem however is there is a standard for LCC but as yet no hardware, patented or otherwise. So Hornby may be struggling to produce LCC hardware themselves or waiting, perhaps in partnership with a separate hardware manufacturer, for someone to produce hardware. Hence the delay. This is is of course highly speculative, based only on the 2 points I made at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbi Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 @Hosh.................I think you are being very disingenuous to Hornby, they have not deliberately failed to introduce LD, obviously they have hit technical or commercial issues which have delayed rollout...........Why you think Block Detection is what we need I can't imagine, it is an outdated concept. You commented back in April 2012 that neither Railmaster nor the Elite could handle Block Detection so why do you imagine that Hornby would redesign both and risk the wrath of thousands of existing users. When Hornby finally perfect the new system and can confidently present it to market I'm sure many thousands of enthusiasts will embrace it and fully enjoy the benefits.HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I don't think the majority of people want block detection, that is why we have waited for LD. The issue here is not Block Detection, the issue is that Hornby/HRMS have continued to let us think LD is 'coming soon'. If it isn't, tell us! Don't just tell a handful of people at a show! HRMS have encouraged us to talk about LD, they have included commands in RM for us to explore, they too have said it is coming soon. Their definition of soon and ours appear to be completely different, also different to that in the dictionary! There are times when I really do not understand the customer service at Hornby, why create excitement, why encourage people to talk about LD 'on this forum' and then tell a few people at a show it will not come until 2017. Come on Hornby/HRMS lets have the facts and stop dangling carrots or making us think something is 'coming soon' when it isn't. You will be better respected and save a lot of problems by telling us when LD will come and avoid 'coming soon' if it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 There are times when I really do not understand the customer service at Hornby, why create excitement, why encourage people to talk about LD 'on this forum' and then tell a few people at a show it will not come until 2017. Seems pretty obvious to me - if they string everyone along then they buy Elites/RM rather than go in another direction with the electronics of their layout. From what I can see, the only reason to look at Hornby for model railways is for British Locos and rolling stock. The rest is like something out of a 1970s catalogue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosh Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 A block detection system will only ensure certain sections of your track are live or not, linked with points and signals.This would be less problamatic than LD but with less control. I can't understand how anyone thinks LD will be able to do things that BD can't.Care to give an example?BD needs -BlocksGood softwareThere is plenty of good free software out there and any "proper" layout should have blocks as well anyway. I really can't see the fuss - I must be missing something. Any sort of "detection for the masses" seems like a contradiction in terms to me. Detection is not a "for the masses" thing. Probably from either a purist point of view or a marketing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I can't understand how anyone thinks LD will be able to do things that BD can't.Care to give an example? There are a list of items LD can do that BD cannot do, here are just a couple but, what I think are the main ones... Control of loco speed, accelerate to (x), decelerate to (x), increase speed to (x), decrease speed to (x)More accurate stopping, every time in the same place Loco Detection is not a Block Detection system but can simulate Block Detection. A Block Detection system controls power to blocks (dead or alive), these controls can be linked to and control points and signals. Loco Detection will know the speed and direction of a loco (I personally am not concerned about this as I know these items) but pre-programmed commands can be added if this or that loco, or all locos, then speed = (x), or as said above, accelerate or decelerate to (x). One loco, some of your locos, or all of your locos. Loco Detection system is in some ways a good name but it could also have been, 'Sensor Controlled' model railway system. Another name might have been 'Realistic Controlled' model railway system, Realistic being the system not the way Hornby have dealt with it of course. The way Hornby have dealt with it is far from realistic, there handling is more like that of a Block Detection system, is it on or off, alive or dead, coming or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetmanUK Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 A block detection system will only ensure certain sections of your track are live or not, linked with points and signals.This would be less problamatic than LD but with less control. I can't understand how anyone thinks LD will be able to do things that BD can't.Care to give an example?BD needs -BlocksGood softwareThere is plenty of good free software out there and any "proper" layout should have blocks as well anyway. I really can't see the fuss - I must be missing something. Any sort of "detection for the masses" seems like a contradiction in terms to me. Detection is not a "for the masses" thing. Probably from either a purist point of view or a marketing one.On a real railway block detection (something is in it the block or not) is supplemented by the on-site loco driver who knows what loco he is driving, how fast it is going and where precisely in the block it is. LD adds all of those to BD. Simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Sadly it appears, on here and on another forum, that some people who believe Block Detection is the best way also seem to think it is the most realistic and most life like way. But, it isn't the most realistic, it is just another way of simulating real life in a model. A block detection system relies on live and none live blocks/sections of track, that is not true to real life railway. On the other hand, Loco Detection, will offer the ability for us to run our trains on permanent live track, with the addition of sensors to allow us to program commands for the trains to run, slow down or stop. 'in a more realist real life way'. Again it is just another method of simulating real life but, to me, it does seem the most realistic option. As Metman Uk says... the on-site loco driver who knows what loco he is driving, how fast it is going and where precisely in the block it is. I believe LD can be really good, I always have, my issue on here is not LD itself it is the way Hornby/HRM have dealt with or not dealt with the marketing of it. It is coming it isn't, it is coming soon, coming soon, coming soon, coming in 2017! But why tell a few people at a show and not the members on the forum who have taken time to discuss it as encouraged, have given feed back to help them. I do not understand them at all, ok if they have changed things for a reason and it is not 'coming soon' and will now be 2017 why not say so, why not inform those who have shown interest all this time. Are they helping people come back to the hobby? No! Are they showing they have good customer service and care about the name Hornby, they do not appear to be doing so from where I sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 PJ, whilst it is frustrating, if you watch programmes like Dragons Den, the Patenting of a product, can take years. The patents people, also, give little indication, of progress. I imagine Hornby, by now are as frustrated, as some of you guys.. If, as seems likely, they are in the dreaded patent queue, then, it will come, when it comes, hence the reason, for no dates. As you know, there are a couple of similar systems, on the market, and this might account for why things are held up. Who has copied who. Its just as well, you have so much work still with your signals, as you might have become bored, waiting. Me, i am on the installation of my Massive Helix, recently built, and that alone is going to take most of the winter. With six decks, and so much track that i will need shares in hornby/ peco, , let alone the threaded rod , washer, and nut companies, i do not have a moment spare. If anyone knows a quick way, of spinning nuts onto 36 inch threaded rod, i would be over the moon. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hello John, blessed are the peacemakers. This issue, I repeat, is not the wait for Loco Detection; it is the way Hornby/HRM has dealt with it. You are a parent John, did you ever say don't worry son, I am getting you (something your son wants) it is 'coming soon'. After a period of time he says when it is coming, he is told it is 'coming soon'. You give him some ideas he can do or make with what he wants, he gets even more excited, then after another period of time he asks when it is coming and again is told, 'coming soon'. I don't wish to repeat this but would you say something is 'coming soon', over and over again, building up his hopes by keep saying 'coming soon' I don't think so. The example above is you and your son, but it could be any situation, when you were a Bank Manager would you string your employees along with coming soon, coming soon, coming soon, would you tell a customer a loan was 'coming soon', when you could not say when, I doubt it very much, you would tell them how it is. It doesn't matter what example we use here, Hornby are a well known company but they are fast getting a bad reputation for poor customer service. Although we may be disappointed we would respect Hornby for telling the truth. But it appears Hornby cannot even do this, they 'appear to have told a handful of people' at a show that it is not coming until 2017, they haven't taken time to tell people on the forum, the ones they encourage to talk about it, the ones who have shown interest for a year or even two years. We can only assume that they have said LD will not be available until 2017, we have not had it confirmed from them nor have we been told the reason for any further delay. The issue John is not the wait, not even the patent, it is that the company haven't the decency to update those who have been loyal and shown so much interest for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37lover Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 John,I built a helix, for sale, with threaded rods and I used a drill fitted with a flap wheel sander to spin the nuts. Worked surprisingly well. I did wrap the flap wheel with masking tape! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 37 Lover, hi, thanks, brilliant. Have no flap wheel but am experimenting with dremel, with rubber wheel. My fingers were beginning to suffer. Have 18 x 3 foot rods, that need17 ish nuts per rod wound down. Got it down to 3 mins per nut, but something had to give. Magfan, cant spin bar, as 6 nuts already in position, on each rod. Was originally, thinking of buildind 2, but there has to be a better method, of nut spinning. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Hi John,Quite a task I think. I like the Dremel idea with the rubber wheel @Are you going to link the layout on the table tennis top, with the layout in the roof area? :o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 PJ, yes. The layout on TT table. will be connected to 2 tracks on Helix, which rises 6 times to join to double track, on back wall. From there it goes along 2 walls , presently working as 2 Shuttles. At the far end of the second wall, i do not have space to return it to layput via second helix, at this moment in time. So , i either need a re- think, and have been looking into ramps, or a loco lift, where i could drive it on, lower and then drive off trains could run down a ramp, but not up. Know nothing about lifts, so, open to suggestions. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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