Scale speeds of our DCC 00 gauge trains

[PJ_model_trains]

I had that problem with 3 diesel shunters. I get so much better control with DC. 

 

Interesting comment ModelerXYZ

 

But speed can be controlled in DCC you just need to tweak it in the CV's (I will at first need guidance to do this but) it will make each train consistent at the same speeds.

 

If the Cv's do not give this consistency in speed I can see how you think as you do.

 

I can see another project coming along  ;o)

 

PJ

[96RAF]

This may/may not be of use but...

In Rocrail you can increment speed and see it reported on a speedo and at the same time it reports the speed step for that speed Being sent by the controller to the decoder. You don't need to draw a track just configure the locos you want to test as well as define your controller.

So by running two locos opposite each other on a calibration loop track you can note their speed steps and write them to the loco speed curve or mid/max V cvs. 

This calibration loop is also handy for fine tuning double header locos.

Decoder Pro allows you to easily adjust a speed curve as well.

Both these are free downloads.

Hi RAF

You say both downloads are FREE couple of questions

- do they do 64 bit I am looking but at present only see 32 bit

- when the software is downloaded (not done it yet) how does it connect to my system?

PJ

I have run them on XP, win 8 32 & 64 without problem. The connection is USB same as RM. Rocrail has a step by step starter guide, but it isn't sorted for eLink although it works it sends multiple commands e.g. Points get 5 prods. elite works fine in either standard or classic mode.

rob 

[george_henderson1]

Hi guys

i understand your issue with the different speeds of your trains but you've just about got the right idea.

what needs to happen just like every car on the road at some point in  time, the speedo had to be calibrated that's what you have to do with each and every train you have.

if you follow the instructions about the speed setting in the manual, the decoder will adjust the speed of the train to scale even if the train is pulling a rake of wagons or not.

also you will be amazed with the speed scale when you set it correctly as it looks so slow.

i know setting up a track just for callabrating is a bit of putting but if your a member of a club they will insist on it, they might even help you.

gsvh30

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi guys

i understand your issue with the different speeds of your trains but you've just about got the right idea.

what needs to happen just like every car on the road at some point in  time, the speedo had to be calibrated that's what you have to do with each and every train you have.

if you follow the instructions about the speed setting in the manual, the decoder will adjust the speed of the train to scale even if the train is pulling a rake of wagons or not.

also you will be amazed with the speed scale when you set it correctly as it looks so slow.

i know setting up a track just for callabrating is a bit of putting but if your a member of a club they will insist on it, they might even help you.

gsvh30

 

Hello George

 

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your comments.

 

Calibration is the word I was thinking of but with clouded mind I was focusing on the point of 'the mportance of' getting the speeds right, actually doing it was the next step on my journey and my brain would need to change gear for that. 

 

Interesting also your comments about model railway clubs and them insisting on it, I can see why and it is the same reason I want ALL my trains calibrated to the correct scale speeds.  

 

Running my trains slower is not a issue with me, I think many people try run their trains to fast, it is rare I run at the set cruise speeds, I like many others on here like to run our trains at what looks right on the layout.

 

Thank you for your input  ;o)

 

PJ

[2e0dtoeric]

Disregarding all the tweaking and fiddling with cv's, there's an easy way to guesstimate the right speed for your loco's -especially steam outline ones - just look at the motion as the engine is running. Is it going like a sprinter in the 100 yrd dash, or ambling around like a hiker enjoying the scenery?

LISTEN to the wheel noise as they go over the track joins - does it sound about right?

If it looks and sounds about right - why worry?

[RB51]

Thats about my level of detail 2e0d - if it looks right, sounds right and feels right - then it is right, and I'm a happy bunny. Nearly always am anyway - can't decide if it's the medication or Brandy. R-

[Graskie]

 

 

I tried double-heading a couple of locos on RM recently. Each loco is supposedly sychronised by RM with the other, but I found, certainly with regard to speed, that was not so. I tried to program them individually to match but had to give up.

 

There probably is an answer somewhere, but don't forget that not all decoders have EMF feedback, which can presumably cause problems.

[RDS]

Hi PJ

I think what you need is a new feature adding, SD?

[PJ_model_trains]

Good afternoon guys

 

I have run a 'speed comparison test' this morning and was shocked at the results/differences!

 

So far I have only tested steam trains, with or without sound, run the test without sound.

 

The speed comparison test included the following trains

CoN - Cock O the North - Hornby TTS (New)

DoG - Duke of Gloucester - Hornby TTS (New)

RS - Royal Signals Patriot - B*mann Loksound  (12month old but probably only run 2-3 hours max)

ES - Evening Star - Hornby (no sound)

 

All trains have been warmed up for several minutes prior to testing

Note there are 3 points on my outer oval, although these can affect testing both trains are being run on the same track so under the same conditions.

The speed slider knob had to be used to adjust the speed of the second train

 

Results on test

Con 60mph --- DoG 67.5mph

CoN 60mph --- RS 43.5mph

CoN 60mph --- ES 30mph

 

All trains are to scale, designed to be run at scale speeds???

 

>>> My next test has to be one train only from A round to A and record the time, then do the same with each train in turn.  My initial test was based on the fact that I saw a clear visible speed difference for two trains on the same track

It will be interesting to see the difference in Hornby/Hornby trains, TTS/TTS and others as well as B*mann  trains

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

 

I tried double-heading a couple of locos on RM recently. Each loco is supposedly sychronised by RM with the other, but I found, certainly with regard to speed, that was not so. I tried to program them individually to match but had to give up.

 

There probably is an answer somewhere, but don't forget that not all decoders have EMF feedback, which can presumably cause problems.

2e0 and Roger

I totally agree with drive your trains as they look right regarding speed.

 

Graskie

You hit one of the nails right on the head!  But there are Two!

 

1 - yes one is double heading

2 - two trains on the same track not catching up and bumping each other (another word would be crashing!!!)

 

Speeds need to be syncronised, 30mph is 30mph, or whatever other speed. I was amazed at the difference (see my post) one train doing 60mph another doing 30mph yet they were both doing the same speed on the track?

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I haven't had time to test more trains but was surprised at the two TTS ones.

 

After running for two minutes, run around the outside track once, three tests and results averages I so far have...

 

CoN TTS - 31.24 seconds

DoG TTS - 38.51 seconds

 

Considerable difference, both brand new, both run on the same track, both warmed up first!

 

I will test the others same as above for now but need to create a test track with no pints and do as stated in the RM Guide.

 

I have not had time to read the guide fully for the tests yet but,  I will be looking for reasons for.....

 

Why an oval track for the first test, scale speeds? “Time to travel 6.274m”.

and why a circular, slightly smaller track for LD profiling?

 

No doubt I will find out more soon  ;o)

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 but which one is correct pj? railmaster data base all three hornby should be correct

so for rs and hornby es both are way out compared to con ,dog

so if we assume con is correct then the three locos need calibrating to con, i would suggest comparing the "Time taken to travel 6.274 metres " of the con and es ,because 30 is half of sixty ,so double or half" TTTT 6.274" value and see where that takes you ,

remember that you need an accurate datum to start with ,which will it be ?

 

Hi Magfan

 

I agree, the only to know which one is right, if any, is the 6.274m test.

 

The test has to be carried out when a train motor has been warmed up

 

The test has to be carried out at a constant speed which mean getting it warmed up at that speed I chose 60mph for example.

 

It then means accurately starting and stopping the stop watch as the train passes the set position. For this I do it three times and take the average. All times are similar subject to pressing the stop watch button accurately.

 

I do wonder why 6.274m made up of the following for 00 gauge

4 x R603 long straights and 

8 x R8262 4th radius curves

 

And for auto profiling for LD just

8 x R8262 4th radius curves

.

 

Wouldn't the 8x 4th radius do for both tests?

 

PJ

[Tee1707818014]

Just a thought PJ when you are testing the loco times are you allowing them time to reach there set speeds first before timing ? To eliminate the acceleration speed set in cv first?

[Tee1707818014]

I'm thinking the only way to know that 2 locos are the same are to read the cvs set for each & compare them  if they are same them test for difference in speed .

[Graskie]

 

PJ, you said, "I will test the others same as above for now but need to create a test track with no pints and do as stated in the RM Guide."

 

So you've been testing so far with a few pints inside you? That's perhaps the problem! (:- o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Just a thought PJ when you are testing the loco times are you allowing them time to reach there set speeds first before timing ? To eliminate the acceleration speed set in cv first?

Hi

As mentioned above, I get the train warmed up, I chose to run at 60mph so got up to that speed before testing.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I'm thinking the only way to know that 2 locos are the same are to read the cvs set for each & compare them  if they are same them test for difference in speed .

Hi

The test abovd wss with 2brand new trains

DoG with TTS sound and CoN with TTS sound, I expected, if nothing else, these two would be the same.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 

PJ, you said, "I will test the others same as above for now but need to create a test track with no pints and do as stated in the RM Guide."

 

So you've been testing so far with a few pints inside you? That's perhaps the problem! (:- o)

 

Hi Graskie

Well spotted. Have you tried train spotting, more popular at present than loco detection LOL

Sorry for error, I am not on pints, I am on tablet... Android tablet several times a day between trains LOL

PJ

[2e0dtoeric]

This text has had a couple of pints, too, and needs something to lean on to stop it falling over. Is there a wall in reach? Ah - that'll do!

Is it April the first, yet? No? It soon will be!

[PJ_model_trains]

This text has had a couple of pints, too, and needs something to lean on to stop it falling over. Is there a wall in reach? Ah - that'll do!

Is it April the first, yet? No? It soon will be!

April

Bring me sunshine.....

Get rid of the cold biting winds, frost and snow (although snow has only been on high ground... so far)

PJ

[RDS]

 

how does railmaster know the data for a brand new locomotive ? do you have to update railmaster every time hornby releases a new tooled locomotive ?

RailMaster is very good but the HRMS team cannot be expected to know the details of an un-released model.  At the very least, you will need to follow the instructions in the RM manual for speed calibration, as discussed earlier in this thread.

[PJ_model_trains]

I haven't had time to test more trains but was surprised at the two TTS ones.

 

After running for two minutes, run around the outside track once, three tests and results averages I so far have...

 

CoN TTS - 31.24 seconds

DoG TTS - 38.51 seconds

 

Considerable difference, both brand new, both run on the same track, both warmed up first!

 

I will test the others same as above for now but need to create a test track with no pints and do as stated in the RM Guide.

 

I have not had time to read the guide fully for the tests yet but,  I will be looking for reasons for.....

 

Why an oval track for the first test, scale speeds? “Time to travel 6.274m”.

and why a circular, slightly smaller track for LD profiling?

 

No doubt I will find out more soon  ;o)

 

PJ

how does railmaster know the data for a brand new locomotive ? do you have to update railmaster every time hornby releases a new tooled locomotive ?

 

Hornby RailMaster Guide page 36...

 

All of the Hornby International locos built in to RailMaster have been preconfigured, after much research and profiling, to use scale speeds accurately.

This includes over 2,500 Hornby, Rivarossi, Arnold, Electrotren and Jouef locos.

This has involved a great deal of work in researching speeds of locos in real life, then running the models at various speeds so that you can experience true scale speed operation on your layout through each locomotive’s motor speed range.

[PJ_model_trains]

  so pj

thanks to rds we now know the information will be incorrect ,so i would suggest that the older locomotive already in the rm data base is closest to scale speed you will need to match any new locos using the "max loco speed "  i suppose that info is on wiki and altering the "time to travel 6.247 metres " up/down will bring new locos into scale speed.

Hi magfan

 

The guide states...

 

Scale speed for 'Non-Hornby' International Locomotives

 

All of the Hornby International locos built in to RailMaster have been preconfigured, after much research and profiling, to use scale speeds accurately.This includes over 2,500 Hornby, Rivarossi, Arnold, Electrotren and Jouef locos.This has involved a great deal of work in researching speeds of locos in real life, then running the models at various speeds so that you can experience true scale speed operation on your layout through each locomotive’s motor speed range.

 

If you wish to add another manufacturer’s loco and have it run at scale speed(or near scale speed) you can do this quite easily by pressing the scale speed button, measuring the time taken for the loco to complete a loop and enter two parameters.

 

Although we can use the test stated it is designed for Non-Hornby loco's.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 well i would broaden that statement and say

it should be used for all locomotives not already in the railmaster database ,based on model numbers " r " and not locomotive names.

as see it you are trying to calibrate railmaster to any locomotive presented to the software and using a speed distance formula , ie from the known max speed of the locomotive the time taken to travel a known distance railmaster adjusts its display of MPH.

as we know the max speed and the distance we only have input the time taken . applying any data to this parameter will enable railmaster to display any speed we like

 

 

Hi

 

I agree we should test every train ourselves, although we would except them to be somewhere near when we purchase them.

 

Subject to how much we run the trains maybe they should be tested again due to depreciation in the motor and wear and tear. 

 

The problem however, for many, I think, would be the test layout could be as big if not bigger than our  curent layout and we were stuck for room when we planned our layouts!

 

Test should be done at 75% of top speed for the train, not full speed, and should be after warming up and after the train has reached the set speed.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

 well i would broaden that statement and say

it should be used for all locomotives not already in the railmaster database ,based on model numbers " r " and not locomotive names.

as see it you are trying to calibrate railmaster to any locomotive presented to the software and using a speed distance formula , ie from the known max speed of the locomotive the time taken to travel a known distance railmaster adjusts its display of MPH.

as we know the max speed and the distance we only have input the time taken . applying any data to this parameter will enable railmaster to display any speed we like

 

 

Hi

 

I agree we should test every train ourselves, although we would except them to be somewhere near when we purchase them.

 

Subject to how much we run the trains maybe they should be tested again due to depreciation in the motor and wear and tear. 

 

The problem however, for many, I think, would be the test layout could be as big if not bigger than our  curent layout and we were stuck for room when we planned our layouts!

 

Test should be done at 75% of top speed for the train, not full speed, and should be after warming up and after the train has reached the set speed.

 

PJ

 

Every Loco is at correct scale speed when purchased and will be for the remainder of its life,

the test layout is not essential , just 6.274 metres of track .point a and point b 

 

Hi magfan

 

They can't be. As mentioned previously I ran the following two brand new trains round my track, same track, same conditions both at 60mph scale speed and they took different times to do the loop?

 

CoN TTS - 31.24 seconds

DoG TTS - 38.51 seconds

 

That is a big difference!

 

PJ