Flashbang

Hi Having read all the posts so far, I'm getting more and more confused! (Not hard these days!) 😮 You have two loops connected by at least one set of cross-over points. Is that correct? All loops will be DCC controlled from the Select DCC system. Is that correct? How is each loops power feed to it? Have you used two Hornby Electo Point clips R8232 per point or have you linked outer loop to inner loop using two power clips or power track sections? Which is correct? How many power feeds connect to the rails? We know the Select is not faulty, as it powers up correctly when the two Track wires are removed from its terminals. So the defect is somewhere on the tracks. So to prove which loop is causing the problem remove all Electro point clips (staple like spring clips) two per point from all points, if they are fitted. Or if you have linked loop to loop remove all the linking wires. You will now only have one loop operational. This will be the one with the rail feed connection to its tracks from the Select. Reconnect the two feed wires to the Track terminals on the Select and to the connection on that one loop. Turn on the Select.. Does it now work correctly and power up correctly with just the one loop? If so, then your problem is on the other loop and probably how its being feed or there is a short circuit on that other loop somewhere. If the Select fails to power up with just the one loop connected to it, then the problem is somewhere on that loop. You will need to investigate more closely as to the cause. Possibilities are .... Wires touching, Something laying across the rails or Crossed wiring are the most likely causes. But only step by step by step methodical checking will locate the defect/problem.

So are you suggesting the filament lamps sold by Peters Spares for use in the older filament lit versions of the Hornby colour light signal are not correct? Or that simply they have used the wrong terminolgy? There is a vast difference!

No the R8247 is the Hornby DCC Accessory decoder. Hornby do not make a CDU. You would have to source this from elsewhere. - Peco, Block Signalling Brimal to name but three There are many others and eBay can be a source too Plus there is the need for a suitable power supply to feed the CDU and all motors. Typically this is 16volts AC at around 1.0Amp. But can also be a DC supply at around 19 to 21 volts (ex laptop PSU are often used)

If the DCC decoder has not been adjusted via CV29 then it will (or should!) run correctly on DC as well as DCC. So if you don't wish to tamper with its innards then leave as is. 😉 By what you're saying it reads as though there wasn't any DCC socket inside the loco and you had to Hard Wire the decoder in place. Assuming no lights, then cut one at a time the wires from the motor, start with the wire that attached to the decoders Orange wire and one original wire that has the Red decoder wire fitted to it . Make an in-line joint between these two wires. Now do the same with the other motor wire that has the Grey decoder wire on it. Jointing that to the the original wire that's connected to the decoders Black wire. That should free the decoder and restore DC only operation. If the decoders Orange and Grey wires were taken directly to the motor from the decoder and wires from the wheel pick ups which went formerly to the decoders Red and Black wires are too short, run new wires to replace the orange and grey wires jointing them onto the two wires from the wheel pick ups. If after re wiring you find the loco runs on DC the opposite way to required, swap around the two motor wires on their terminals.

Hmm. Going to any exhibition this year and possibly for the first half of 2021 may well be impossible! Even then its very unclear what we in the UK will be able to attend? There are many other makes of DCC system than Hornby, many are very professional in their use and appearance. But I'm not allowed to promote them here. You will have to do some research via Google or post the question on a non manufacturers owned forum! But IMO the main criteria are... Hand held or desk console. Perhaps even PC control? Power output of system in Amps to track. Ease of use. Will it offer all DCC options - All Functions 0 to 28. All address numbers 1 to 9999, Ability to read CV values and write all CVs. Be repaired in the UK easily should it ever fail (Not that often thankfully!) assuming you are UK based Can it be upgraded or improved it to a higher spec. item? Just a few items to consider 😉

As for the images of the burnt carriage, its impossible to say what caused this? But there are few possibilities... Over heating decoder due to it having insufficient air flow - Its been wrapped in insulating tape or shrunk down heat shrink tubing. The decoders components have over heated due a fault after the decoder. The PCB of the carriage or loco has defective components or they have failed or have been subjected to an overload. The decoder was installed incorrectly and a partial short circuit has become present allowing larger currents to flow causing overheating. But of course none of this will return the carriage or loco to its original condition. But what should be learnt is that with DCC large currents can flow under fault conditions than ever seen with DC. Generally on DC the maximum current is around 1.0Amp on DCC this can be 4 or 5 Amps or more depending on the DCC system used. in the USA some DCC users will often have 10 Amp systems. Consider this....Typical DC = 12 volts at 1.0 amp is equal to 12 watts. On DCC 4 Amps at 15 volts is roughly 60watts, while 10Amps at 15 volts is 150Watts. 60 watts is very hot. Consider a conventional filament lamp rated at 60 watts. Its extremely hot! In fact don't touch such a lamp when lit, it will probably burn you!

If you remove the DC operation "Blanking plate" nothing at all will work, whether on DC or DCC! No lights or if its inside a loco, no motor controls. The blanking plate plug allows a loco or unpowered carriage to work correctly on DC (Analogue) control. Once its removed and its socket is left open there is no connection to anything! Replacing the blanking plug with a suitable decoder and on DCC power you can then adjust the decoder to allow lighting or motor (where a motor is fitted) operation to work at its best.

So in OO or 4mm/foot that is a width of roadway in real size of 15 feet widening to about 17ft 6" inches.

HI Pleased to read your getting used to DCC, which IMO is a far better control system than DC will ever be. (sorry die hard DC users, but the plain facts are out there!) 😮 What is very confusing to new DCC entrants to all this DCC Tech speak of CV and Values etc So to try and make more sense of these - Consider CVs as the tuning slots as used on a TV or Radio to bring in a selected programme channel. CV number xx allows you to select the operation within the decoder (The channel needed). Its value then allows you to Fine Tune that setting. e.g. back to our radio tuning - You select the frequency to be tuned (CV number) then slowly tune the setting to be able receive the best sound (Set a Value in that CV) So for the very basic item in DCC you need to select an address number (CV1) you then fine tune that number to ensure best reception) set CV1 value to the address number required. e.g, CV1 value is set to 33. This becomes the decoders address number of 33. CV1 is of course a decoders address number and is frequently set automatically by the DCC system without the user knowing its been altered or set! So, if you alter the value set in CV1 it will alter the decoder address number. If you alter say CV3 to a value of 1 the acceleration rate will be all but removed - The loco will move off immediately. If you then set CV3 to say a value of 30 the loco will take a considerable while to move off when the speed knob is set to a higher level. Equally if you set the value in CV4 - de-acceleration rate to a high value number the loco will take a longer time to come to a stop when the speed knob is turned to Off. So as you can see from the above, altering the values in a CV alters how the decoder and in turn the loco performs.

Hi Unfortunately your link in the above post is incomplete and doesn't lead to any posts!

@ColinB I completely disagree with your comments and they are totally unnecessary. I was not being unhelpful or rude in my initial reply nor in my follow up one or in anyway failing to give the OP useful information. Have you actually read them? The fact is he decided to turn on my post in an extremely poorly handled way! I've even used an analogy of two new cars and dealerships to try and show what I was meaning in a later post. The most useful advice the OP can have is to remain with the Technical advice offered by the manufacturers/suppliers of the decoders or to contact, as I politely suggest, a third party DCC specialist. He later posted after having a go at me, stating "I have already tried other decoders!". Note his opening comments were that he had 5 x GM decoders. My advice clearly stated was to try another make. Not the same type i.e a Hornby one if need be.

@Kenfo. You have received plenty of guidance both from myself and others too. What you seem to have failed to understand is most contributors here are Hornby product users. Your DCC control system is not Hornby and your DCC Decoder is not a Hornby product. Therefore in my view its much like walking into a Ford car dealership and complaining about the performance of your Vauxhall car, you may get suggestions but not necessarily the knowledge about the product needed. Even though you're in a car showroom/garage! That was the meaning of my comments that you seem to feel are not correct and have rather rudely pointed out! I even pointed you in a possible direction including a URL to get some very good advice. Seems to have been lost though in your rantings though! As its your first time I suggest you may like to think again about posting such rude comments. I will never offer to help you again on here or anywhere else.

Hi Just to be 100% clear... On DCC powered rails you should always fit a decoder into any loco where there is a motor. Failure to fit a decoder will result in very quick motor failure when the loco is run on DCC rail power. Trailing unpowered carriages (No motor fitted) can be run on DCC without a decoder. But any directional lighting (where fitted) will not work correctly. If the loco and trailing carriage has directional lights, then the rear carriage will benefit from a decoder as this then will enable the lights to be switched On/Off and also of course provide full directional lights (Where fitted). 😆

Yes Sorry, I now appreciate what a DVT is. In my book its Deep Vain Thrombosis! Hope no one on here suffers these! 😆 Directional lights are the White headlights or white marker lights for forward movements and red rear lights on the back for forward moves. These swap around (or should!) when the train in going in reverse. The red rears turn off and the white lights come on and at the former front end the white lights go off and the reds come on. On DC these directional lights are rail polarity switched, but on DCC there is no such thing as polarity switching its all done by the on board decoder(s) using the Blue, White and Yellow wires on an 8 pin decoder. Also on DCC is that F0 (Function 0) turns On or Off directional lighting and on non sound decoders F1 can turn On/Off any additional lighting such as cab lights.(Cab lights may be not on your train but worth remembering). I appreciate you may not have a Hornby Select or Elite etc but as this is the Hornby forum that is why I mentioned them.

No, but the other end is motorised isn't it? I assumed the OP meant the whole train? If just the unpowered end only, then my post above is not applicable. Of course any lights fitted will not be able to be direction controlled nor can they be turned OFF without a decoder being fitted.

Hi Hornby along with most other DCC manufacturers recommend that you DO NOT run a DC only loco on DCC power even if address 0 (Zero) is available. See the Hornby Elite and Select manuals re this. Placing a non-decoder fitted loco (DC Only) onto DCC powered rails will result in rather quick motor failure due to the motor windings overheating! If you want to run the loco on DCC fit a suitable decoder and so long as DC operation has not been disabled it will then safely run on DC powered rails too. 😉

TBH I honestly don't think this is the correct place to be asking questions about two non Hornby products? 😮 If you Google ECoS Loconet you will learn more about what a loconet is 😎 I assume the loco runs correctly on DC with the decoder removed and the DC operation only Blanking plug fitted? If you don't have a DC controller, use a fresh PP3 9volt battery across the rails (With the DCC system disconnected from the rails and all other locos removed) when the loco is in DC only mode. You won't be able to control the locos speed, but the loco should and must perform correctly on DC. I may also be worthwhile turning Off Bemf and testing the loco with it turned off. Don't forget you can always restore the decoder to its as supplied new default settings including address to 03 usually via CV8 entering a value of 8 but do check the decoders leaflet to ensure CV8/8 is the reset. Gaugemaster are renown for being one of the most helpful retailers, via their Technical Help line. They, IMO, should be your place of all questions. However, if you're still unable to resolve, then I would call or email Kevin at Coastal DCC http://coastaldcc.co.uk/index.php and ask his opinion. Again a very knowledgeable DCC person and helpful retailer. If all else fails try another make of decoder! 😮 Edit to correct URL provided. Second Edit to this post to remove my CV54/55 comment, as I've just downloaded the decoders leaflet and these CVs are not available!

Hi I usually use standard paper sizes - A3 or smaller A4 depending on what is to be fitted onto the panel. To draw the plan I use a drawing software package many of which are free to download and use. You can then easily see what will fit and what won't. Worth remembering is you do not have to show a complete loop assuming your railway has continuous loops. An assumption is on the panel that track A meets the other end of Track A elsewhere on plain line. Of course any points would mean you would need to show them! These are A3 sized panels I've made for my clubs N gauge layouts and rear storage yard for the OO layout.. /media/tinymce_upload/d72481444928b32e3de6d1f9ccf6bc70.jpg /media/tinymce_upload/19c34fb46e3fea64a3f7892307710a84.jpg /media/tinymce_upload/2436af8ab22a346d181377dd4eb9761d.jpg

As far as I can see there is one thing that hasn't been stated or asked! A) Is the loco actually stalling - Power remains constantly On but loco stops. Or B) Is the loco shorting as it passes over the points frog area? Thereby cutting off rail power and the DCC console shows a momentary short circuit. ? Both need different approaches and cures.

Hi Yes you do have to join MERG to obtain their kits etc The cost is £16 pa plus a one off £5 joining fee. IMO its well worth joining even if its just for the information they provide. I don't see the point (No pun intended) in calling up a DCC command to operate an item via CBUS? Though this can be done I understand (Not proved by myself). You can obtain all sorts of DCC accessory decoders that work over the two wire DCC Bus pair, such as for an example.... Solenoid point motor control or Stall motors control etc. CBUS works over its own dedicated twisted pair of data wires, plus a 12 volt regulated power supply to feed all the CBUS modules. Plus it provides feed back over the same pair of wires A lot different to DCC and CBUS does not provide traction power. Why would you want to mix the two, when both work happily independently? But as I've said, I believe you can do so with suitable module?? However, none of this has anything to do with the OPs question re a dual DCC bus.

@ColinB I would suggest if you want to know more about CAN Bus and model railway controls, then you look at or better join MERG. Who are a UK group of mainly electronic enthusiasts, who's interest are layout control. There link is http://merg.org.uk/

Oh, I forgot the original topic of a Dual DCC bus... Indeed its a good idea and needs one all Electronic overload circuit brealer trip fitted into the rail power Bus (Not the Accessory Bus) So from the "Track" output terminals of the DCC system a pair of wires are taken to the Input of the Overload device. The devices Output feeds all the rails only. Then a second pair of wires are also taken from the same DCC systems "Track" output terminals and these go straight out to the layout and all Accessory decoders are fed from these. One excellent all electronic overload cut out is the PSX-1 which has adjustable trip current from 1.27 Amp up to a maximum of 17Amps Wow!17 Amps is massive! Now the down side is that some of Hornby's DCC products are supplied with a meagre 1.0Amp power supply, so they cannot be used in this configuration. But simply replacing the 1.0Amp Power supply with the P9300 etc 4.0Amp power supply will allow dual bus operation and the PSX is set to a lower trip current of say 2.5 or 3.0Amp which will then work well.. Example of a simple dual bus system... /media/tinymce_upload/36462bda857c91decc13820cb1dd6c45.jpg

Hi Damp Squid time! Sorry guys 😮 I have to ask WHY spend all the money on Accessory Decoders, Relays a CDU and loads of additional wiring? When there are extremely good quality Accessory Decoders sold with separate CDUs for each output. Of course if you have the accessory decoders already, then adding the relays and a CDU may well benefit the solenoid point motor operation. But if starting out from scratch take a good look around! 😮 CBUS was mentioned earlier by Colin. That is what I'm using on my new layout along with Servo motors rather than solenoids. Adjustable servo speed of throw easily carried out once the points over centre spring has been removed. I'm making CBUS kits up supplied from MERG but there are ready made CBUS modules available too from other suppliers...Google MegaPoints as an example. The other alternative is of course to use Stall (Slow motion) motors, which come in both Analogue or Digital operation and like Servos provide a more realistic and gentler throw of the points over and back. So, the Solenoid motor or as its sometimes called the "Snap Action motor" has challengers, which IMO are better, and in some cases much simpler to wire and use! 😆

Hi If there is no short circuit normally, when no loco is passing onto the bridge section, then its nothing to do with copper clad sleeper gaps. As a failure to prove a gap in the copper clad would immediately produce a short circuit regardless of a loco being present or not. However, if the short only occurs when a loco passes over the gap between the main layout and the DCC powered moving bridge section, then its almost certain that the rails on the Bridge section are wired 180 degrees out from those on the main line. As Rog (RJ) suggested.. So then simply reverse those rails power feeds on the bridge section. 😆

Hi Any solid state (Non relay) reverse loop module should work with the Elite's 4.0 Amp PSU. Some (if not all?) are trip current adjustable too The most important things to remember with and reverse loop are 1) The the whole longest ever train (Loco and all carriages or wagons) MUST fit inside the loop. That is between entrance IRJs and the exit IRJs. and 2) No other DCC feeds must be connected to the reverse loop rails, other than the Output of the RLM.