What About The Bee

Hello Tom I claim neither authority nor infallibility. It is entirely possible I am wrong about Henry Austen. Once I examined his imagery vis the Armengaud mechanical drawings, I found Austen wanting. Perhaps you would share some of the imagery you are referring to? Take note that the moderators here must approve every image, and that may take a bit of time. I'd be happy to hear more of your views on Austen. Thank you Bee

Tom As to Henry Austen, I find most of his depictions to be derivative of others. That is, he was not a first hand observer, he essentially draws a new scene from other images. Look at his depiction of Planet, for example. Where did the front buffer go? His consist images are a rehash of Ackermann. So I do not anguish over second hand interpretations, even if they are period depictions. Similar to Reynolds and Freeling, Austen's images are derivative. Now when it comes to the Vignoles image, it is in perfect side elevation. Meaning it is not a natural depiction, it would be impossible for Vignoles to ever see the consist like that in real life, where everything is in 3 dimensions, not 2. Inferring carriage width may be possible, but with the unnatural depiction, uncertain. I am still researching the personal carriage wagons and the particular carriages depicted on them. I am not prepared to disclose my uncertain research at this time. Finally, the issue of Novelty running on St. Helens and Runcorn, in my view, is indisputable. Whilst I cannot vouch for the authority of this page, note the statement of disposition of Novelty after the Rainhill Trials. https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/novelty-0-2-2wt-st-helen-runcorn-gap-railway/ So is the image an actual depiction, like a photograph, of the consist? No, I think it representative in nature. It shows a locomotive known to be on the railway, as well as carriages and wagons that were on the railway. In perfect side elevation, as a way for Vignoles to promote the railway to others. Bee

Hello Tom Welcome Aboard! I will defer to the Science Museum Group for the attribution of the image. Please inspect the record for the named artist https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co421097/colour-lithograph-view-of-train-carriages-by-charles-vignoles-c-1830-print-lithograph Bee

Hello 81F While I can think of a few reasons, I would like to hear yours if I might. In the second image, the boiler is cut away, to show the internals. Would you mind expanding on that? You mention that the body needs lowering. Yet it appears that the tender fall plate is reasonably matched in the first image. Would you mind expanding on that as well? I hope to learn a few tricks, so as to help me with OO Planet. You are ahead of me Bee

Very nice train indeed Alberto. May I ask why you have turned off comments in YouTube for this video? I see nothing controversial. Bee

There are some bits of evidence which may help our understanding. The first is the conservative nature of the LMR. During the first years, there was quite a bit of experimentation. But even as late as the Victoria Station opening at Hunt Bank in 1845, there were issues in interchange of carriages, because the LMR turntables were too small to turn Manchester and Leeds rolling stock. What you see for livestock transportation in 1831-34 is almost assuredly what you will see in 1848. With one very notable exception. Sheep wagons were scrapped in 1839 as worn out, unserviceable. Sheep were encouraged to use the same wagons we see pig and cattle in. The coupling system of freight and livestock would have been slow to adapt to the 1836 Booth patent. That was designed for passenger comfort. A dumb buffer system with chains means individual wagons can be adjusted along the rails without moving adjacent wagons. So align livestock wagons to the chutes by hand. Would that be possible? Yes. Early weight limits were 4 tons. With a rolling coefficient of friction as poor as 0.01, the force to move the loaded wagon is only 80 pounds of thrust. Modern rolling CoF is an order of magnitude smaller, making the thrust an astonishing 8 pounds!! I think your idea of blocking off pig escape quite relevant. I would take that one step more. There is no need to use all the chutes at any one time. Pick the single chute that best aligns with the opening to the livestock wagon. How do I think this worked? The cattle and pig wagons illustrated by Ackermann (and others) do not show doors. But an entire side could be lifted out of the bolsters and then moved along the wagon. So the locomotive moved the livestock wagon into general location. The workers lift and move the slat side, creating a small opening in the corner of the wagon. They pick the chute that most closely aligns to that corner. Maybe they adjust the wagon to the chute, because the drag chains permit this. The single chute is opened and the animals directed through. A door system could certainly be present, on the chute side. Makes perfect sense. You theorized that the livestock station was for local consumption. Agreed, no issues. Manchester must be fed. I would expect that there would be an abattoir nearby. As to the cattle yard, the absence of pens does not bother me. A farm down the road from me occasionally keeps cattle in paddock. They do not try to escape, but do like to wander about inside the paddock. The cattle yard on the map is smaller compared to the paddocks. Bee

I have heard back from Hornby. A reasonably fast response, in just days. In the very first post in this thread, I wrote: "The front buffer beam shows the rich appointment as it is carved and pin striped. That will be a difficult challenge for Hornby." Well, exactly that was the difference. Hornby replied: "I’m afraid we have production parameters that will not allow us to put the lining around the buffers stocks. Also the very ends of the chassis we have had to simplify the lining to make it possible to mass produce." So am I terribly fussed over this? Not really. I found a difference because I went looking for one. If I had not been examining the model in fine detail, I would never have noticed it. My order stands. Still holding steady at Spring 24 Bee

Doesn't Gromit the dog span two carriages? Unless you plan on a perfectly straight end to end layout, that may prove troublesome. Bee

Hello Michael Welcome Aboard! Excellent question. I have never seen them available or sold separately. customerservices.uk@hornby.com Please write to customer services for this item. When you find out anything, please let me know. I have not lost any, but it is simple to do. I would like to purchase spares ahead of time!! Bee

Hi Simon Thank you for your reply. From Wood, Practical Treatise .. we have the width of an early flatbed. 2.3 meters / 7 feet 6 inches. I will suggest that flatbed wagons were converted to livestock wagons in actual practice. If we assume equal clearances on either side, then the side of the livestock wagons were appropriately 3" / 7.5 cm from the retaining wall. Your dimension of 8 feet makes perfect sense. Wood shows the length of that wagon at 3.15 m / 10 feet 4 inches. How does that align with the length of the pig chutes along the track? About the cattle yard. The opening to Oldfield Road suggests it is just one yard, no pens required. Of course, interpreting fine details is tricky. I note that the retaining wall goes the length of the rail spur. An earthen ramp could be anywhere along that. Bee

Those of us waiting for Hornby carriage pack R40357 have been looking to see a Hornby render of Queen Adelaide's Saloon, instead of a photograph of the prototype. That still hasn't occurred Yet we do have an update, albeit in R40437, wherein Hornby will offer Queen Adelaide's Saloon as a single carriage. It appears to be a CAD render, not a sample, yet I will not expire on that hill 🙂 I grabbed the image and, placing them ever so carefully using my photo edit tools, compared detail after detail. The Hornby render vs the image in the postcard above. Why the postcard? It offers a reasonably good side elevation. Just like the Hornby render. So here is that comparison Now nearly every detail is letter perfect. It looks absolutely fantastic from my point of view. I did detect a small difference, but you would have to look really, really hard to see it. I've written to Hornby, requesting clarification. When that comes, I will update. Until then, feast your eyes! Bee

The battery holder holds a CR2032 battery. The CR2032 battery has a voltage of 3 volts and a capacity of up to 240mAh, manufactuer dependent. Almost any 3 volt transformer you purchase will supply that. Probably have to look long and hard to find one that could not. I think of your camper as a static building. Just power it from the wall. No need to ever fiddle with batteries again. Bee

Simon Here is the Ordnance Survey detail of the livestock yard near Ordsall Lane, Salford. The Manchester end of the line. The rail is definite, at this scale we see two rails for a single track. My interpretation of the retaining wall and the animal chutes is less certain. Bee

In the US, generally accepted accounting practices assigns the value of warehouse at cost. Otherwise, management could assign any value to inventory desired by simply assuming a profit margin. A profit margin which may or not be realized, but certainly would forestall investor ire. Thus preventing the books from being properly cooked. Bee

Ntpntpntp It has been my experience that Hornby have to "approve" of reviews and comments, before they appear. Bee

Hello Simon In very broad brush, both LT&SR_NSE and ThreeLink have it right. Remove a side, or end, and take the animals down a ramp. The record is remarkably thin when it comes to period recorded details. 1) There is the livestock station at Ordsall Lane in Ordnance Survey maps. There is a structure trackside, and there could be animal chutes going right up to the rails. 2) there are the sheep wagon drawings which show doors on the sides and on the ends. 3) There is the Reynolds sketch, showing the sheep wagon with a plank style ramp on the side. So we must use logic and reasoning to understand details. A) I will suggest that side loading and unloading is more efficient than end loading. No need to uncouple the wagon, roll the wagon to the ramp, load and then recouple. Just align the ramp and wagon, unload, without uncoupling or coupling. In particular, the sheep wagons that show doors on the ends are early drawings, the primary one by Booth, 1830. The later Ackermann prints all show side doors. Efficiency. B) large animals, such as horse and cattle, would need an firm fixed ramp. Having lead horses up and down both fixed earth ramps and plank style ramps, I can tell you their preference: firm footing. Making a plank style ramp stiff enough to support large animals would be massive and difficult to move around. Far easier to roll the wagon to the fixed ramp. C) sheep and pig are smaller animals. The ramp could be either style, fixed or plank. The Ackermann print, showing the pig handler lifting the animal by the hind quarters is illustrative. Not all pigs are that small, but that one was. D) The fixed ramp could be wood or earth. Either style is possible. The earth is simply dirt piled next to a retaining wall, next to the track. That will require periodic maintenance, throwing some more dirt on top. A fixed structure of wood could put the ramp right up to the very side of the wagon, just like the retaining wall. But the wood would require periodic replacement, large volumes of animals walking on wood, would destroy it. I think earth is more efficient. Hope this helps! Bee

Spend 60 seconds! Big smiles! Trust me!! Bee

Any manufacturer will tell you, the profit margin on spare parts is a gold mine. The customer needs the part. It usually cannot be obtained anywhere else. As such, the price on a spare part is sky high. Suppose I make a gear for production models. In volume, I may spend less than £1 for each one. That would roll up into the wholesale cost, and with overhead and profit margins, sets the retail price. But my pal Going Spare needs one. Just so happens that we have bins and bins if them. I can sell him one for £15. Bee

While examining LMR details in the period Ackermann prints, I realized that there was an alternate Livestock Wagon portrayal. It differed in the location of the vertical posts. So while I'm waiting for the "engineering samples" of the primary Livestock Wagon to be sent to me from Shapeways, I decided to create the CAD model of the alternate. Let me begin with the period artwork. First, we have the Ackermann print of 1831. We can observe three men along with some pigs. The wagon is preceded and trailed by sheep wagons. The men are wearing hats and their coats have tails! The horizontal rails are inside of the vertical posts, and some posts are directly in the corners. The Ackermann print of 1833 merely duplicates the print of 1831 in the details of this wagon. The only thing of note is how the artist colored in the jacket tails and the trailing wagon is now a Horse Box. The Ackermann print of 1834 has redrawn the alternate Livestock wagon. You will see the primary Livestock wagon just in front, showing the two post arrangements, and where my moment of epiphany occurred. Further, the men have been removed from the alternate. Of interesting note, the artist who recreated the drawing of 1834 did not understand how the posts and slats should be arranged. It is poorly redrawn and unlikely to be based on a view of the actual wagon. From this assessment, I infer that the wagon was not common, perhaps only in the first year or two of the LMR's existence, and that the other design was easier to use in railway practice. Where do the bolsters go? If on the outside of the floor plate, then the slat posts on the ends interfere with the buffers. If the posts are on top of the floor plate, then the corner bolster becomes very complicated. They cannot go inside the chassis either. I started the CAD model deciding that each fence section would be its own body. That is, the slat ends and slat sides would, in actual practice be manipulated as an entity. How then to make the four slat sides overlap in the corner. I eventually came to this. An isometric and top plan view are presented. The purple ends are separate from the blue sides. The corner posts have a similar appearance to the 1831 Ackermann print. An LMR worker could remove a side, or end, and the structure is still possible. I decided to tab the sides to the floor, much like the Hornby Sheep and Horse Wagons. Square tabs in square holes. This eliminates any bolster design issues. There are none. The problem with this approach is that the square holes are immediately above the standard Hornby chassis. Therefore, the square tab is only the thickness of the floor. This may make the slat ends and slat sides very unstable. They may simply fall over. On the primary Livestock wagon, I set the posts inside the chassis and thus can be 4x longer, no issue there. To add stability, the tops of the posts in the corners will interlock with another square tab, square hole arrangement. I may even have to glue the slats on this wagon. In any event, the CAD model for the alternate Livestock wagon will not be submitted to Shapeways until I see the actual prints on the first. Similar clearances and tolerances are present there, I may learn something from that. Bee

Hello Daniel Welcome Aboard! Absolutely every model produced by Hornby is limited in production. Even good old Smokey Joe does not have infinite numbers. When it comes to special locomotives, the numbers become even more constricted. Hornby are well aware of the "collector" nature of production. In limiting some models to X, they hope to encourage you to think that this is because Hornby wants to drive value. An alternative consideration is that this is how many they expect to sell, X, as that is what the market will bear. So Hornby issue the model, and include a piece of paper. With printing on it. Which declares number x of X. Instead of making X quantity of models, without the piece of paper and declaration of X. Bee

Hello AndyMac You wrote: "Supporting your local model shop does not mean buying items at a price from which the retailer can hardly make a living." The local model shop is competing against the entire internet. The race to the lowest price for a common commodity. I can purchase Hornby R1234 from anyone these days. Every R1234 is the same, so why not purchase the cheapest. Or direct from Hornby. Frankly put, a retail shop of nearly any kind these days is in peril. No one promised the LMS a living wage. Where is it written that the LMS must survive? But a retail shop is not "model railways". It may be what you associate with model railways, but it is not the thing. Model railways existed before the LMS. The LMS came about when a living in retail, purveying model railways, was viable. The LMS is not really viable against the internet. But that isn't the "end of the line for model railways", just the end of the line for some shops. Neither are giant conventions "model railways". There were model railways before conventions and shows. Just as there will be after. Conventions are a business, not model railways. Neither are railway modeling magazines, dying at a rapid rate because of the internet. They too, are not model railways. Here is what I think "model railways" are: A model you build in your home. A pastime. If you build it and play with it, it isn't dead. Individual expression of creativity. The businesses that spring up around model railways will come and go. Some last longer than others. Some are a flash in the pan. Others become institutions. None of them are guaranteed to survive. They are a business that provides a service and or product. When that isn't viable, they close. A direct answer to JJ's titular question: "End of the line for model railways?" Not for model railways, as long as there are individuals who build one. No, it is not the end of the line. Maybe for some businesses, making a meager living, selling meagers. But not for model railways. Bee

1) The entire "catalog" is online. It may be sorted to show only what is in-stock. 2) Printed catalogs? How quaint. ~~~~~ The internet is changing how business is done. All up and down this hobby. The local model shop, the box shifters, the magazines, the manufacturers are all under pressure to change with the times. Good old Fezziwig wouldn't change with the times. Preserving his way of life, he went out of business. Don't be Fezziwig, stuck in tradition. The internet is here to stay. The printed catalog, as popular as it is with some people, is a dinosaur. It will be gone within a decade. Frankly, it is surprising it is still here now. It serves little purpose other than tradition. It was how Hornby used to announce product, before the internet. It will soon be extinct as the dodo. Moaning about it serves no purpose. Now as to Colin's point, may I state that Hornby are directly aware of his issue. Martyn, Hornby Head of Brand, stated that there will be more frequent release announcements, with a product closer to release, when they announce. An exact response to the complaint. A perfect example of this response is Locomotion No.1. They showed a working engineering model, running on track. Due at warehouse in Autumn 2024. Announced 9 January. Not too shabby, unless you want them to stock the shelves with models, then sell it. Some businesses work this way. Like grocery stores. They will put out apples and wait for people to buy those apples. That expects Hornby to know how many "apples" to put on the shelf, based on the historical record of "apple" sales. Okay, what is the historical record of R30346 sales? Do tell me. They have never offered it before. Bee

Hi JJ Exactly!! The journalists who say model "railways are dead" do not believe a word of what they say. They do want you to look at their advertisements. How can they do that? Make up some nonsense to get you to panic. "Oh No! I better read this" you say and end up looking at their advertisements. Same thing for certain reviewers on youTube. Not you, of course, but others. They say ridiculous things to make you want to watch them. And they get paid. So honest in reviews, they use affiliate links, meaning they get a referral fee. If you like the product, why listen to folks who just want to run it down. Bee

Hello Robin Welcome aboard! You can easily select which models are in-stock. It is easy to see models you can get, right now. Of course, you need to use the internet and not a print catalog, because what is in-stock today could easily be sold-out, tomorrow. Just "FILTER" your search to "show in-stock only". Voila! Bee

ADDENDUM During the Range Launch Q&A, Hornby Head of Brand specifically asked us to write in with our wishes. If you pre-ordered R30346 Locomotion No.1, then here is your opportunity!! Martyn said, send your ideas in to marketing. "No guarantees, but we'd like to hear from you" Challenge Accepted! In this thread, we have examined quite a few pieces of rolling stock associated with Locomotion No.1. There is the tall shed passenger carriage illustrated in Smiles tome Life of George Stephenson. If you would be interested in this carriage, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. Personally, I would order one! There is the elegant covered coach illustrated in the period depictions by Longridge. If you would be interested in this carriage, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. This is a definite for me. Experiment per period correct depictions, set for rolling in consist, hauled by Locomotion No.1! Yes! If you would be interested in the horse drawn carriages, illustrated in the Union advertisement, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. There are several named versions. Defiance, Union, etc. One set of tooling, with multiple tampo artwork, gets multiple models. I would preorder these as well, particularly so with an eye to mounting on a motor bogie, the horse dangling via the traces. It would look spectacular trundling along, just as we see in the period artwork. This is our chance to get the best rolling stock for Locomotion No.1 models, rolling stock that matches to period illustrations, in time for the 200th. If you pre-ordered Locomotion No.1, you owe it to yourself to tell Hornby about the matching rolling stock. Take action! Bee