What About The Bee

Today ( 13 December 2023 ) there is exciting news. The Hornby website, for R30090, has been updated. The expected season of arrival has been updated to [blank]. It was Winter 23-24, but now reads [blank]. It has been my observation that this is an indication of imminent arrival. Yet I could be reading too much into this. For those of us waiting for this carriage ... Hooray!! Less than a year after 10 January 2023 Range Announcement. Perhaps Hornby are catching up with the backlog. Fingers crossed. For those interested in how the website functions, this is an interesting test case. Is a [blank] season an indicative tea leaf of imminent delivery? If the state transitions to "in stock" by 31 December, then the answer is yes! Bee

Hello Sam One thing I have found very useful when attempting to fix electrical issues is to draw the schematic. Every component. Every wire. Each part of the circuit. If it includes a circuit card, label each connection. Find the technical data sheet for that card. Often times, when I do so the error itself jumps off of the page and into my lap. You may very well spot the error on your own. Failing that, post your diagram here. The brain trust¹ here will spot it. Bee ¹I am decidedly in the peanut gallery! 🙂

Bob, Details about ballast will be found in the "previous page". A simple heads up. Hornby uses a slightly unusual navigation feature and you may miss the answer. Use the special Hornby navigation tab below. Your question was one I had not considered before and thus you have extended my knowledge. Thank you! ÷÷÷ Hi Simon Your proposal also makes sense and this is what makes interpretation of the 2 century old data so difficult. We cannot assume that the LMR followed the standard model, they were busy creating it! Could Bury have erred when drawing a minor building? Sure, the facilities on the other side of the tracks, including the hot water plant, were far more impressive and likely to catch the eye. It is entirely possible for the small building differences to be artist error. As Three Link says, though, the building may simply have been reconstructed over time. I certainly cannot firmly decide this matter. The thing that solidifies the location of the building is the fill spigot near the small building. This brought hot water to the locomotives. There would likely only be one hot water plant, not two, implying hot water was piped under the track during construction of the line. A fixed asset of railway infrastructure. What ever the shape or artistic rendering of the small building, the location of the hot water fill spigot seems definite and thus the building. There also is the concern of plagiarism, an artist merely copying someone else's image. There is one notable Bury lithograph which is clearly and definitively plagarised from Booth. Yet Bury also offers unique depictions which cannot be plagiarized. I do wish that photography had been invented a few decades earlier. Bee

Hello Jules, As this is your first post, welcome aboard. Now as to your questions, there can be no answer in this forum. Why? Because Hornby, rather surprisingly, maintain no presence here. Since speculation will be fruitless, may I recommend you contact customercare@hornby.com with your questions. I have asked similar questions in the past about other models still under development. They will ask the engineering staff, and you will very likely receive an answer to your queries. If and when you do, please do share with the forum. Hint: when asking your questions, number them. Make them specific. Reference the model number: Rxxxxx Bee

Hello Bob You asked about ballast. This really needs to be a track bed question to answer your query completely. Nicholas Wood "A Practical Treatise on Railroads..." 1838 provides us with the requisite data. Within that authoritative tome is Plate V, which will provide us with informative sketches. The Lithographs In image after image, the artwork sold to the public that represents views of the LMR shows track and rail, all without ballast. Just scroll to my previous response about Parkside, and look specifically at the track and track bed. It appears as if the track is simply buried in the soil. This is a very consistent representation. No ballast, buried track. We never see chairs. We never see sleepers, stone or otherwise. Nicholas Wood Practical Treatise is the go to tome on early railways, authored by a participant in the development of those railways. If Nicholas Wood says something, it is on good authority. The description he offers for the track bed is the recommended practice, not necessarily the actual practice of any one railway in specific, unless he so states. There is ballast used under sleepers. It consisted of anything that would pass through a 2.5 inch aperture, the depth of about 9 to 12 inches. Double track mainline should have a gap of 6 feet between the outside edges of the inside rails. It should be noted that the initial gap for the LMR was set to 4 feet 8.5 inches, such that a locomotive could run down the middle of the two lines, although there is no record of this ever having occurred. Drainage ditches should be 1.5 feet wide, on the outside of the track bed, which you may observe in Plate V Figure 1, top left corner, merely shows that the track will remain level as the ground undulates, requiring cuttings and embankments Figure 2, left side, shows a cutting in cross section. Figure 4, shows the plan view of a double line. Note that one line is wooden sleeper, the other diagonal stone sleeper blocks. Drainage may be present between the two lines, and it is brought to the drainage ditches on the outside of the lines. Figure 3, left side, shows a cross section of an embankment. The location of the ballast is most evident in this cross section. The ballast is UNDER the sleepers. With the sleepers firmly seated, fill is placed around the sleepers to hold them in place. This is entirely consistent with the lithographs sold to the public. Fill to about 3 inches under the tops of the rails. Moving to the right hand side... Figure 10, top right, is a cross sectional view of an LMR level crossing. The stone work you see would be all buried, with the top of the rail level with the top of the blocks. Three vertical columns of ballast for drainage are most evident. Figure 12 provides us with a crystal clear view of the ballast under stone sleeper blocks, surrounded by fill, with the fill brought up to the top of the rail. Figure 14 provides us again with the ballast location, but here without the small fill retainers. Note however, you will still only observe fill, not ballast Figure 16, bottom right corner, shows the drainage arrangement on a bridge. You may note I have skipped over some figures. These should be self evident upon inspection but if you require further information, simply ask. I didn't think those figures germane to the discussion. Conclusion An authentic representation of LMR track will be just as you observe in the Parkside image by Bury: buried. Bee

I missed this in the initial review of the problem, focusing instead on the "motor is racing" Rather, the important bit is that "the wheels are slipping". From this, I infer that the wheels continue to turn, but they are slipping. Wheels that do not turn, cannot slip. My current line of thought is that the wheels are turning inside the traction tires. With the wheels held steady, it will be possible to rotate the tires relative to the wheels, if the line of reasoning is correct. Little torque will be required. Scott mentions 1981. A tire could easily have relaxed in the past 42 years. Bee

Tony If I might offer a line of thought. Mastery of a 3D printer will have little value without mastery of the thing that feeds it. The thing that feeds the printer is the intellectual property, the 3D design. A 3D design can always be printed by Shapeways (or others), once the design is made. May I suggest you play with and master the design tool first. Bee

Available for viewing in the US.

But wait! There's more! These are in the showman engine family but are still steam powered, much like a locomotive. 1824 Gordon's Steam Carriage David Gordon's steam carriage has 6 feet, instead of Brunton's 2. It is my estimation that this device could only be made to function on flat ground. If the ground was rough, a foot would attempt to lift the carriage, likely leading to the mechanism being bent and deformed. There is no record of commercial success, although a prototype does appear to have been constructed. Danger was evident, it used a weighted, not spring powered, safety valve, clearly evident in the image 1827 Gurney's Steam Carriage Sir Goldsworthy Gurney (yes, Goldsworthy was his name) also participated in the walking engine family. The primary method of propulsion was wheels on a crank axle. Yet for steep hills, Gurney added "propellers" as he called them, yellow arrow. These were coupled to pistons, providing a linear stroke to propell the carriage when the going got tough. Regular service between London and Bath was provided, averaging 14 mph. Note the shape of the inside carriage and its resemblance to coaches of the period and the LMR First Class carriages. This was the accepted and expected shape. He later coupled carriages behind the engine, when the heat of the engine became uncomfortable for passengers and the danger of explosions evident. Sir Gurney discarded the propellers :( And that, fellow oddity enthusiasts, ends the walking engines in early steam history. Bee Post Script. I do realize that the Brunton article was quite long, even by my own standards. Yet the vehicle was so strange as to defy belief and deserving of complete coverage. I do hope that you visited Adrian's page of the model, link above!

Here is a wagon under construction by a master of the trade, Dave Engel. The orange arrow points to one of four bolsters visible in this image. The small yellow arrow points to where the post would sit. The bolster is inboard of the post. Find the other bolsters and you will understand the preferred arrangement. But Bee, I hear you say, where are the straps on the bolster? The bolsters on this wagon are "ring type". These rings are trapped under the bolster strap, making the strap and each ring into two, two link chains. In use, the rings are brought horizontal and the post will thread down through the rings. This holds the post to the bolster. Bee

Hi Simon My bolsters are based on actual wooden wagons. I provided an image of an actual bolster in the original post. Now the tricky bit is as follows. In real wagons, the horizontal members of the stake sides should be on the inside, placing them in compression against the vertical posts. On a real wagon, the bolsters are typically inboard of the vertical post, the post on the outside edge of the wagon. In this arrangement, the bolsters are under the horizontal members, conserving floor space. The famous Ackermann prints of the LMR invert the members. They show the vertical posts inside the horizontal members. This means any attaching bolts will be in tension, which is a far weaker arrangement than is the above paragraph. The horizontal members would be on the outside edge of the wagon, the posts inboard of the horizontal members. Ackermann does not show any bolsters, but clearly any stake side wagon would have them. This leaves me in the unfortunate position of placing the bolsters outboard of the posts, to properly conserve floor space, as would be the outcome of any arrangement. As you may deduce, I am troubled by this inversion. Bee

Thank you! Bee

Hi Tony Everyone goes through a similar learning curve. What I did was to try a few of the online tutorials at first, where the step by step process is illustrated. Next I set myself a task, to make a buffer adaptor, such that Lion could propell a few chaldrons around. My goodness. 4 rectangular blocks and some threaded rods to tie it together. It was a struggle, primarily because there was no one to hold my hand. It took forever. I was quite proud when finished. Nowadays, that buffer adaptor would be quite simple, taking less than an hour from start to finish. It is unclear if you have selected "FreeCAD" or just some CAD software that is free. If you have selected "FreeCAD", I can help! The first few projects are the hardest. Stick with it. You can do this!! Bee

The notable exception is R60164 Coal Wagons. They do have a different chassis. The one outlier so far. Bee

Hi Aussie Fred The chassis for all of Hornby's LMR rolling stock is one design. Doesn't matter if it is the first class yellow, second class blue or any of the freight wagons. All the same, just a different color! I intend to replace the supplied floor of the flatbed with my 3D printed floor, keyed to receive the bolsters. Bee

Hi Aussie Fred Algebra tells me there is an issue somewhere in the numbers. For the "17mm coupling" Hornby states the 17 mm is between the pocket faces. So the length of two couplings = 2*17mm = 34mm. In order to get 17mm, 8.5 mm of each individual coupling must be in each pocket. Face to face = 34mm - 8.5mm - 8.5mm = 17 mm So far, so good. You measure the "20 mm couplings" at 18.88. So two couplings = 2*18.88mm =37.76mm. Using the same 8.5 mm as above, Face to face = 37.76mm -8.5mm - 8.5mm = 20.76mm 20.76 mm is not equal to 20 mm This means either the "20 mm couplings" measure 18.5 mm by your original method; OR the face to face distance will actually be 20.76mm, not 20mm. A minor dilemma indeed, made into a mountain by my CDO. That's the same thing as OCD, but all the letters are arranged alphabetically (joke, I do not have OCD). Bee

With the very attractive price on flatbed wagons, I ordered a few sets about 8 business days ago. They have arrived and I must say, the packing job was superlative. They were bundled up in a cocoon of bubble wrap Here is a flatbed wagon apart. Since there are no instructions or exploded parts diagram, I was forced to muddle through. Removing the two screws is easy, but the floor would not come out. There are four locking tabs which engage the chassis. Slide a razor blade horizontally betwixt the chassis and floor and gently prise each corner up, releasing the locking tab. The floor was swiftly reverse engineered into FreeCAD, so that the new design will meet the existing chassis. I will start with the Livestock Wagon, used for pig and cattle. The animals are retained on the wagon with stake sides or fence sections. With the four stake sides sketched, I encountered the tricky bit. I want them to work as they would on a real wagon. Wagons use bolsters, a stub vertical member. Straps are used to receive the post of the stakes. After quite a bit of fiddling around, I finally realized that bent copper wire would act just as the straps on an actual bolster. Here is the Livestock with two stake sides removed A close up of the bolster with the post in place And with the post removed. The bolsters are tabbed into the floor, so they will be on location to within 0.002". The wires around the post have a 0.2mm gap to the post, all around, or ~ 0.016" total tolerance. The posts should easily slide into the bolsters when assembled I will give this a bit more thought, possibly tweaking a detail or two. Fairly soon, I will have cattle and pig wagons rolling around the layout. Bee

Hi Bulliedboy In the Hornby turntable video of the 2MT, I was struck by how nice the pipework looked on top of the boiler. Very pretty locomotive indeed. I hope you enjoyed my little pun! Bee

From the description, perhaps something in the gear train is slipping. That is, with no restricting friction on the wheels, loco in craddle, the wheels will turn. The moment there is some restriction, loco placed on track, the motor turns the gear train without turning the wheels. Place the loco back in cradle. With the slightest of touch on the driving wheels, look for slippage. DO NOT USE TREMENDOUS FORCE. Bee

Underneath that beautiful shell is a vacuous void. That is too empty. Boom, hiss, I'll be here all night! Is that the new 2MT?

Hi Three Link White Spirit is a naphthenic oil, sometimes known as Stoddard's Solvent, Mineral Spirit or Mineral Oil. A slightly more refined distillate, in the same family, is naphtha. From my wooden boat building days, naphtha will dissolve (is a solvent for) dried asphalt. No surprise that it would attack some plastics, as there are many formulations of plastic. By the way, 3 in 1 contains <3% Naphtha. Bee

Hi Three Link You may very well be correct. The Parkside facilities underwent a series of improvements and modifications. Indeed, in 1839, an entirely new station was built to the east of the spur in the map. This is the primary reason I show the location with a red arrow, so as to not be confused. There is also the usual undercurrent of plagarism and artistic license to contend with. The other day, I got very excited. I thought I had located a small bridge constructed by Vignoles for the St Helens and Runcorn. The St Helens and Runcorn, you will recall, constructed the "Intersection Bridge" over the LMR. One of those tiny, "underpass through an embankment" bridges. The photograph showed a single cart wide construction, tucked away down a path in the woods. Alas, while on the line, it was a late 1800s construction, not original and certainly not Vignoles. Bee

Bob In addition to the main engine works at Ordsall and Edge Hill, the LMR maintained a watering facility at Parkside. The tiny LMR locomotives could not make the entire 31 mile journey without refilling midway. On Opening Day, Member of Parliament Huskisson was run over by a locomotive at Parkside. The LMR erected a memorial close to the spot, which remains there to this very day. As such, the location of Parkside station in the images to follow is known. You may see it here There are two images of Parkside. In chronological order, the first by Bury The second by Colyer I think the small building appears in both images, with Colyer getting the roof line different. Both provide unique and fairly trustworthy views of the LMR, so I am puzzled by that detail. Both images include refill spigots for filling tenders. That main chimney is present because the LMR filled tenders and locomotives with hot water, decreasing locomotive down time. Hot water was provided by the LMR at Liverpool, Manchester and Parkside. Inside the shed, under the main chimney, we can observe a locomotive. This gives a great view of how Engine Shed doors were constructed. Additionally, I think the small building in both images is the passenger station. Unlike the grand station at Lime Street in Liverpool, or the grand station at Hunt Street in Manchester, the Parkside Station is well suited to reasonably sized layout. You will not need 11 feet for the platforms! The locomotive in the Bury image is a Rocket Class, although I cannot tell which one. It is pulling a first class train, consisting of glass / yellow carriages. The locomotive in the Colyer image is a Planet Class, again, I cannot say which one. The guard seated on the carriage is the signal man, who provides information to the guard on the last carriage to apply the brake. The guard in the image merely relays the engineman's command without applying his brake. Bee

Hello Bob There are no contemporary photographs of the LMR, as the LMR preceeded photography! You will occasionally encounter an image of persons who were associated with the LMR, but these were taken much, much later in life, when photography became available. There were two engine facilities for the entire railway. The first was the Ordsall Lane Works, near Manchester. The other was the Edge Hill Works, near Liverpool. No images of these facilities exist to my knowledge. Yet we do have the track plans of these facilities, from ordnance surveys. If you want to investigate further, go to the National Library of Scotland web pages and find Ordnance Survey. Be careful of the year of publication. You certainly want near period representations. Circles on the track are turntables. The LMR used turntables everywhere. ~2 meters in diameter. Just big enough for a locomotive. Not with a tender. Now as to what the buildings would have looked like, I will present two images. They are clearly associated with the LMR. The first is titled "Engine Works...Bolton". I believe this to be Rothwell & Hicks, based on the description. Rothwell & Hick made a few locomotives for the LMR, notably Rokeby and Roderick, LMR 59 & 60 respectively. The second is the Bedlington Iron Works. Bedlington made the wrought iron fishbelly rails for the LMR. Note the large doors permitting entry for locomotives. The scale may be observed by the horsedrawn chaldrons in the image. Note, you can zoom these images. I submit that Ordsall Lane and Edge Hill would look similar. Non descript multi story with a peaked roof, and certainly not purpose built for function. Large chimneys for iron work. Combine the track plans with the building types and you may get close to what the first part of your question was, to wit: engine works on the LMR. About stations: Did you want passenger or freight? Bee

The MSDS for 3 in 1 is readily available. Its primary constituent is naphthenic oil, a distillate of natural hydrocarbons. Labelle oil for model railways also has an MSDS available. The primary constituent is paraffinic oil, a different distillate of natural hydrocarbons than naphthenic oil. Both naphthenic and paraffinic oils encompass a broad range and do not represent a specific hydrocarbon. Bee