What About The Bee

Using the same methodology as I did for the curve at Wapping Tunnel: The map in this instance is "Derbyshire XXXIII.NW". Find the curve on the map. Gotham Curve is conveniently located at Gotham. With the curve located, place a circle on the curve, yellow. Then, place horizontal and vertical diameter lines of that circle. Next, using the scale of the map, place it to read the number of chains. I get close to 2½ chains. We know the answer should be 2½ chains, from other references. I think the map analysis agrees. Bee

Hello ModelerXYZ I checked and re-checked. Under description, on the Wikipedia page, it says 55 yards, [50 meters] for the Gotham Curve Now it absolutely is possible that the Wikipedia page is wrong, and the dimension really is 50 feet. I really have no way to confirm the unit, other than by the Wikipedia page. UK Government website states 2½ chains (55 yards) https://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=D6367%2F1%2F321&pos=323 Bee

Can someone explain why Model Master fell so far behind? Did he experience a serious illness? Jailed? Overwhelmed by volume? Why? Bee

Hello 81F 👋 PayPal expects the seller to ship upon payment. Unlike the shop who took payment for my sheep and horse wagons and then sat on my money for 1½ years. To encourage shipment, PayPal wants sellers to include a tracking number to a package, a package sent to the buyer's registered address with PayPal. The package must go to that address, not to freight forwarders.¹ When a buyer cancels for non-shipment, a fee is incurred for the seller, just as Yelrow points out. The penalty is taken directly out of the seller's account with PayPal. So instead of a 'no sale' with a £0.00 transaction, there is a net negative against the seller's gross. That is a harsh message to a business. Model Master responded by stating "No PayPal". The seller can cancel upon receipt without penalty. However, the minute the vendor accepts payment, the meter starts. Bee ¹A lesson I found out when I tried to do exactly that for some spare parts from a well known spares house. Further, when I attempted to set up another PayPal account with the freight forwarder's address, PayPal kicked it out because the address did not match my credit card.

Hi Atom In 1842, Francis Whishaw published The Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, Practically described and illustrated. Naturally he described the LMR. In that description, he states "The quickest curve is between the River Irwell and Ordsall Lane, being of about a quarter mile of radius." Odd choice of word to a modern ear, quickest. Clearly, Whishaw does not include the 'quickest' curve at Wapping Dock, possibly considering it dock shunting and not part of the mainline. 1 mile = 63,360 inches ¼ mile = 15,840 inches In OO (76.2) = 207.874 inches Convert to mm = 5280 mm (R75?) A perfectly round tail chaser layout will require 11×11 meters. Even Pete Waterman may have an issue! Bee

Hello LT&SR_NSE Thank you for that note. I do appreciate it. I avoid, like the plague, anything related to the cost or 'value' of an item. I find that so dependent on a person's budget, that any conversation or review of 'value' is meaningless. My view of price or value tells the reader more about my budget than the item. Bee

I have found further information about the livestock station above. I found a 1:1056 or 5 feet to 1 mile depiction of the livestock station, which affords us a 10× better view than before. We can see both rails of 1 track at this scale. Surveyed in 1848, published in 1851. In this map, individual buildings are labeled and I can clearly see that I have erred. What I considered to be the livestock sidings are in fact the Ordsall Lane Works. The Ordsall Lane Works handled engine repairs at the Manchester end of the line. Clearly marked are engine sheds, engine pits, a smithy and the Coke Shed office. But just across the tracks, on the north side of the mainline, we can see the Pig Station and Cattle Yard. This is strictly on a siding, not the mainline. The livestock station is found! Note that the Pig Station only has chutes to load/unload on one side of the track. Similarly, cattle would load/unload on one side of the track, or perhaps through a chute at the pig station. While an area is not denoted for sheep, it is reasonable to assume sheep were moved through the livestock station as well. My thought is that unless the livestock station near Liverpool arranged its chutes on the other side of the track, there would be no reason to have sheep wagon doors on the opposite side. That is, only one side of pig, cattle or sheep wagons would have a gate or door. No need for a door that gets no service. Bee

Hello Anglia JJ has it just about right. Canal Studios owns the copyrights to both films, something Hornby failed to license. Hornby then tried to say "inspired by" but that was inadequate. Hornby was forced to retract and cancel both items I had Lady with a Lamp R30094 on order, as it was Lion with 3 glass carriages. It was summarily canceled. If you want the Titfield Thunderbolt set, then get the one from Rapido. I suspect we may see Lady with a Lamp back in the catalog in the future. Those R numbers are no longer valid. Bee

Hi SoTriangman Absolutely no surprise the he has taken it back off the market. Bullied Boy has an order outstanding from 2 years ago. A purchaser would have to make good on that order, but the payment is long gone Essentially, the purchase of the business is a two year backlog of liability. The purchaser not only gets that, but a poisoned well of customer goodwill as the cherry on top. The only way to sell the business now is piecemeal: the patterns, intellectual property and any machines. Open up under a new establishment, unconnected with the current business. That's a firesale. Perhaps pennies on the pound. Result: "not for sale" Bee

1½ years after paying a retailer for Hornby's OO LMR Sheep Wagons, they have finally arrived, along with OO LMR Horse Wagons and R7122 OO Sheep. I will not let my disappointment in the un-named vendor color my review. HISTORICAL DEPICTIONS I would like to begin at the beginning. Henry Booth was the Treasurer and Managing Director of the LMR. He wrote a book, published in 1830, titled "An Account of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway ....", which included a plate illustrating rolling stock. Dead center on that plate was a double decked sheep wagon. Note the position of the doors, on the ends of the wagons, not the sides That must have been a proposal sketch, as the first sheep wagons were ordered by the LMR in May of 1831, some time after Booth's account was published. A total of 19 double decked sheep wagons were ordered, divided among 3 vendors. The Ackermann long prints depict several consists. In the goods (freight) consists, we can see the double decked sheep wagons. In this print, please do take a moment to note the length of the passenger carriages and the goods wagons. It isn't just your eye, goods wagons were a few feet shorter than passenger carriages. Zooming in, note the positions of the doors. Two per level on one side. It has been suggested by others that the doors were repeated on both sides, but careful examination of each wagon's depiction does not show doors on both sides. Bury, Colored Views of the LMR, depicts a sheep wagon, in 1833. As per Booth, doors on the ends, not the sides. Crane depicts one, doors on the side. Moreau depicts one, doors on the ends. Moreau's image is plagiarized, based on other images he also presents. There are a few other derivative depictions. Arthur Freeling shows one, doors as per Ackermann. Austen shows two sheep wagons, but the image is so poor, I cannot make out doors. There could be doors, I just cannot be sure. Freeling and Austen images are obvious plagarism. I mention these just for completeness. 20TH CENTURY DEPICTIONS With period depictions complete, I present 2 stamps, published on the 150th anniversary of the LMR, created in 1980. There are other anniversary stamps. Ordinarily, I would never bother the forum with non-period depictions, but the relevance of these stamps to the review will become evident. Take a look at the color of the curtains on the Booth Carriage on the stamps, and then look at Hornby R30090. I'd say that's a match. Take a look at the sheep wagons on the stamps. Where are the doors? There are none. That matches R60165, but not any period sheep wagon illustration. Now my supposition is that Hornby used the stamps as source material, not actual period illustrations. In particular, for R30090, the Booth Carriage roof racks follow the stamps, not the actual Booth illustration. I think there are far too many "coincidences" to draw any other conclusion. WHAT ABOUT CARRIAGE LENGTHS I can accept that Hornby used a common chassis for all LMR rolling stock. That is a reasonable cost savings and for all but the purists, its a detail simply not worth worrying over. Should the Hornby goods wagons have been shorter? Of course, yes they should have been. But Hornby would not have known this, because they used those stamps! Look at the length of the sheep wagon v the length of the 2nd Blue passenger carriage on the stamp. Now go back and look at the Ackermann print. It should jump off the page at you. ENOUGH FAFFING ABOUT BEE I adore them!! The vertical bars are metal. 6 sheep are included with the wagons, identical sheep to R7122. I will draw up a door in FreeCAD, and have the doors 3D printed. Easy enough to glue onto the wagons, and then they will look like Ackermann's depictions. I think they are a wonderful addition to fleet. Quite happy with them. I will be getting more of these. Are the sheep wagons perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Sure, many models start out with small issues, and those models develop better fidelity with a new issue of the same prototype. SOME OTHER HISTORICAL DETAILS The LMR did a good trade in sheep. Before refrigeration, all livestock was delivered live. The hardship of that livestock's walk to the city cut into a farmer's wallet. Livestock, such as cattle, sheep and pig, did not move between the two cities proper. Livestock needs pasture. So a livestock station was set up in Broad Green, just beyond Edge Hill near Liverpool. Near Manchester, an equivalent was established near Oldfield Lane, in Salford, just outside the city. This feature will be readily added to a layout, sidings and pastures, dotted with sheep, cattle and pig. (EDIT: The livestock sidings are not as shown. My error. This is the Ordsall Lane Works, the engine shed for the Manchester end of the line. Livestock station is directly across the tracks. See new map in another post below.) The LMR originally charged for pigs and sheep by the head (8d) but transitioned to a flat charge per wagon, £1. This led to the obvious conclusion, packing in the animals, to their immense suffering. Complaints by the Humane Society of up to 50 animals in a double decker were lodged. Yikes! There was a single deck livestock wagon for cattle, as well as pig. Oxen were also transported. There was one recorded instance of an elephant being transported! By 1839, the sheep wagons were in terrible repair and scrapped. The LMR declined to order more, forcing all the livestock trade into single decked wagons WHAT ABOUT THE HORSE WAGONS? We do have period depictions. You can see one in the Ackerman long print. The fare for one horse, in 1839, was 14s. £1 for 2 horses, £1.20 for 3. The few horse wagon depictions do show 1 and 2 horse loads. The same comments about stamps and Hornby apply here as well. Again, I am pleased with these wagons. Three horses are included with R60166. Further extension of my fleet, with wagons the LMR was known to use. Happy camper, but 3 of these is plenty, as the LMR transportation of horses wasn't exactly roaring. The LMR only ever had 6 of these wagons, 3 on my layout will be plenty. Bee

Hello Gnome One The torque created by the friction of the wheels against rail is insufficient to overcome the internal A4 friction. The internal A4 friction are axles to sleeves, valve gear & etc. Clean and gently lubricate the A4. The wheels should be clean, as any bump on the wheels will prevent them from rolling, and thus no torque at all. Bee

Hello Rallymatt A person who admits mistake is much more admirable than a person who will argue the error ad infinitum rather than to admit the mistake. Well done sir! Bee

Rallymatt Did the 9F have some flangeless driving wheels? 10 flanged wheels & 5 coupled axles on an R4 curve seems ridiculously tight. With flanges, the locomotive would likely tear the track apart. Our models will just derail. In the real world, the enormous locomotive weight simply pulls the spikes out of cross ties. Bee

Hi Three Link I will begin with the overview. To the left is Edge Hill, to the right is Wapping Docks. Wapping Tunnel, denoted with an orange line, traces the route under Liverpool. First, I will show Edge Hill environs. Here we see the LNWR / LMR mainline connected to the Edge Hill Station, through the Edge Hill Engine Works and thence to the Moorish Arch. The map itself says "tunnel entrance". 1830s view of this entrance to the tunnel, with the Moorish Arch as the featured architecture. At the Wapping Dock end of the tunnel, we can see tunnel exit, the curve depicted in the lithographs and the LNWR Goods Terminus. The entirety of my assertion now hangs on the interconnection under the Goods Terminus building. In order to answer the question, I will switch to a larger scale map. Where before, the scale was 6 inches/mile, this new image is at 5 feet/mile, or 10× the resolution. At this scale, we can see individual rail. That is, we see both rails of 1 track. We can observe individual turntables & etc. I have placed orange lines, showing the obvious interconnection. This image shows more tracks than the previous image, it was updated in the 1860s. Business must have been good. I would argue that that the rail that connects in the 1860s likely connected decade earlier. And there I leave it. Hornby said my OO LMR models will go around 2nd radius curves. So did the prototype!! Bee

What is the smallest radius curve on a Standard Gauge Mainline, in the UK? The Gotham Curve claims to be the smallest, a radius of 55 yards (165 ft). In OO, that would be 660 mm, or somewhere between a 5th and 6th radius curve. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_Curve The article carefully excludes industry and harbor shunting lines. For the LMR, the tightest curve was purported to be at the Liverpool end of the line, just after the Wapping Tunnel. Bury provides us with two views of the Wapping Tunnel. The first is of the inside, looking out. A slight curve to the left Another view is at the bottom, looking in. A slight curve to the right I've been able to locate this curve at the mouth of the tunnel on an Ordnance Survey map, Lancanshire CVI (106). Issued in 1851, 6 years after the LMR was consolidated. Find the red dot. That is the location of the lithograph view from the bottom, looking in. The green bidirectional arrows show the tunnel (on the left) and the exposed lines (on the right). The building is labeled LNWR Goods Terminus, the LNWR being the successor to the LMR, the Wapping Tunnel the goods line. Note the Wapping Docks in close proximity. The curve in the lithograph is shown at the yellow arrow. But look at that curve by the orange arrow. My word! That is very tight, but what is the radius? I puzzled and puzzled. How to get the radius? The distance scale on the map indicates 80 chains to the mile, a quick bit of maths informs us that 1 chain is 66 feet. Okay, so I have a reference. It finally dawned on me that I could simply superimpose a circle on the image, and measure the radius. The first problem is to determine what the map represents. We can tell from the lithographs that there is double track, but does the map show 1 or 2 tracks? I see what appears to be two lines, with some apparent cross ties, how far apart are the lines? I find that the two lines are drawn ~13 feet apart. So each solid line represents a pair of rails. The map shows double track mainline, a breakthrough in map interpretation. I then drew two circles, one for each track. The outer red, the inner blue. I carefully examined the pixels and converted the radius from pixels to feet. For the red outer radius, I obtain 123 feet +/- 5 feet. For the blue inner radius, I obtain 110 feet +/- 5 feet. It is difficult to say exactly what each pixel represents, so there is some uncertainty, reflected in the error band. Converting to OO, I find the red outer radius is 492 mm, reasonably just under a 3rd radius curve. For the blue inner radius, I find 440 mm, just 2mm over a 2nd radius curve and certainly well within my error band. Now there can be some quibble. Is that curve on the harbor line, for shunting? Perhaps so. Yet I would also suggest it leads directly onto the mainline. Perhaps qualifying for the "tightest curve on a mainline". What is your nomination? Should we throw this open to industrial and harbor lines? Sure, why not! Bee

If I could offer Mr Grindlay at Model Master any advice, it would be this: Make it your objective to fulfill any outstanding order as quickly as possible. Work as hard as you can, for as many hours as you can, non-stop, until every single blessed order is sent. Go flat out. Bring in help if you must. Get this behind you. Your offer, Mr Grindlay, of ½ price is tempting, but there is no indication of backlog. If we place an order now, and pay for it now, when can we expect to see it? 4 months, 6 months or a year from now? Mr Grindlay, you cannot possibly sell your business for another 3 years or so, until your accounts are brought back to a stable business. Attempting to sell now, with the business in shambles, will result in a fire sale. Finally, with every order sent, apologize. May I suggest you include a 50% coupon in every shipment, the terms of your current sale, by way of apology and making things right. Good luck Mr Grindlay, you have a difficult road ahead. Bee

Hi Alberto I see that Jasmine has a starring role in your intro. Big supporter of this!! Bee

Hello Tony I gave your question a bit of thought before answering. Of necessity, some of my answer will be opinion based. I will take care to note that as we go. Most images of the LMR are from the early days, during the period of broad experimentation. We have Rocket, Planet, Experiment and Patentee. Soaring architectural works like the Sankey Viaduct, completed before opening day in 1831. By about 1838, however, the experimental period had ended. Rail type was settled. Engine types were either 2-2-2 or 0-4-2, of the Bird class. The Edge Hill Engine works took over all engine production. The public excitement over railways had moved on to other architectural wonders, other exciting railway developments. The public deliriously underwent Railway Mania. Other railways, other pictures, other architecture. One very notable image of the late period of the LMR is the image of Victoria Station from 1844. Similarly the soaring Lime Street Station in Liverpool, both were great architectural works. The GWR was established in 1838. Brunel acquired engines from Robert Stephenson & Co, "North Star" springs to mind. Now my opinion is that there is little to no overlap of depictions of the two railways. There are very few images of the LMR, post 1838. The GWR is all post 1838. Whilst it is possible that an artist who drew images of the LMR went on to create images of the GWR, this does not align with the supposition that imagery of the GWR affected LMR imagery. So my opinion is no, depictions of the GWR did not influence depictions of the LMR. I do stand ready to be corrected. I am not infallible, in fact, far from it. Bee

Hello Steve You may search the UK web pages of eBay for completed items. Search for "Hornby R9098" and then "filter" for completed items. This provides you with a list of actual sales. I did this and found 4 completed items. The average price is roughly in the £300s, depending upon how you treat the case where the seller accepted a lower offer than his asking price. The highest price? £427. The lowest? £257. I would suggest that this price is driven by those who wish all the Hornby Thomas range. Bee

There is a subtlety in fare structure and consists which may confuse the casual observer of the LMR. 1st Class Trains Have only '4 inside' (Royal Mail) and '6 inside' carriages. 6 inside are the yellow, windowed carriages. The number refers to the number of passengers per cabin. Blue 2nd class carriages were not on 1st class trains. 1st class trains stopped only at Park Side for water and fuel. In modern parlance, these would be considered Express Trains. 2nd Class Trains Did offer 6 inside carriages, but are referred to as 'glass carriages' in the fare structure. 4 inside (Royal Mail) was not available. Blue 2nd class carriages were referred to as 'open carriages'. In modern parlance, these would be considered Local Trains. It was possible, therefore, to ride in a 1st class, 6 inside, glass carriage on a 2nd class train. Conversely, you could never ride in an open 2nd class carriage on a 1st class train. Further Confusion For the well to do, service was available for your personal horse drawn carriage. A roll on, roll off service on specially constructed flatbed. Not the standard flatbed. These are depicted with the passengers traveling in their horse drawn carriage, with the train underway. The fare, just for the carriage, was 20 shillings for 4 wheeled and 15 shillings for 2 wheeled personal carriages. Additional fees for the horses. Bee

Hello Brew Man Good catch. Liverpool is the western end of the line. Fixing that! No idea why I flipped them over. Tony, Not only does it appear that the gauges switch but the sizes of the locomotives grow and shrink. Some artists did seem to have an issue with proportions when it came to unfamiliar mechanisms Bee

The previous images represent some of the grand structures on the LMR. Grandest Structures There are two which would dwarf all but the grandest of layouts. One is the Lime Street Station in Liverpool. Established in 1836 to handle passenger traffic when it became evident that the Crown Street Station was inadequate. The other is Victoria Station in Manchester, when it became clear that the Liverpool Road Station was inadequate. You may find an image of Victoria Station under "Railway Oddities". To put it in perspective, a scale Victoria Station in OO would be 11 feet long. Smaller Structures Perhaps a smaller structure would be more suitable for your layout, Robert. The predominant traffic was betwixt Liverpool and Manchester, but 'short fares' were also available. These meant you could get off or on at intermediate steps. Second Class consists were permitted the intermediate stops, First Class consists only stopped at Park Side for re-watering. We have an image of Park Side We also have a wonderful image by Shaw, a known good observer of one of these smaller stops. Note the flag pole at the station. A flag was elevated at the station to alert the enginemen that a passenger was to board. No flag meant no stopping. To be clear, there was no schedule at intermediate stops. The only schedule was the departure time from either Liverpool or Manchester. Arrival time was never published, particularly so for Second Class consists. You may observe the guard in the foreground and the level crossing gates he was responsible for. Clearly, this is a very simple affair. Newton Bridge was a slightly larger station. This viaduct remains standing to this very day (Mill Lane Viaduct, Newton le Willows) Fare from Liverpool to Newton Bridge, first class, was 3 shillings. There are other major features of the LMR, but I am not certain you would want them on your layout. The Olive Mount cutting was up to 70 feet deep, and had just enough clearance for double track, the rails pinned directly to bedrock. That puts your locomotive and rolling stock in the bottom of a narrow canyon. Chat Moss was a bog. Pretty desolate, not much visual interest. If you will kindly let me know where your fancy takes you Robert, I would be happy to present you with further images. Bee

Congratulations JJ. Anything over 10K is very impressive Bee

The Bridgewater Foundry was in Patricroft, near Manchester. The Foundry specialized in the production of heavy machinery and locomotives. While it is not shown in the image, it is nearly certain that a siding went to the foundry itself, if only to get locomotives out. The Bridgewater Canal was nearby, as was the Liverpool and Manchester railway. In this scene, the LMR crosses the Canal. The bridge itself consists of two asymmetric arches, one for the canal, another for the road beside it. Of the LMR consists, I observe a passenger consist on the bridge itself. Given the presence of the Royal Mail carriage (last carriage, with guard), I would categorize this as a first class train. The other is luggage (freight), flat cars with tarpaulin. These would be stamped LPM RW, with LPM over RW, denoting Liver Pool Manchester Rail Way. This scene offers a lot of visual interest, a water feature, a bridge with two arches, canal boats, a massive factory, and a double track mainline. We can see worker housing in the background. Bee

Robert The iconic LMR bridge is the skew bridge at Rainhill. This bridge was at a significant angle to the rail. Constructed by the LMR. Further, the Rainhill Level is dead flat. Also the location of the Rainhill Trials. Another iconic LMR bridge is the Sankey Viaduct. Both are still standing today! Bee