What About The Bee

Hi Al Using LT&SR_NSE's steps noted just above, Sam is performing step 3 on video. Step 3 being constructing the kit. Step 2 is making the parts of the kit, step 1 designing the kit. I'm still at step 1. Sam has produced a few videos of step 1 and step 2, but in general, has shown step 3. His model of Copperknob comes to mind, as well as a number of others like the propeller driven locomotive. My take away from the video recommended was the mention of printed resin gears and the construction of the gear box. Printed gears have mixed reviews in PLA, they tend to shear apart. It will be interesting to see the longevity of Sam's resin gears, but that data is unlikely to be shared. My intention is metal gears, and I note that Shapeways claims printed metal gears. That would be in step 2, material acquisition. The gears could be hobbed, and there are gear manufacturers for this. I will cross this bridge when I come to it. Sam does give a sense of what it takes to build a self designed kit. It is what I will be encountering in the future. Of note is that I think I am ready to submit the OO Tender design to Shapeways for manufacture. I will likely learn about all of my design errors very soon. Thanks for the heads up. It is appreciated. Bee

Hello TVR I looked this up and as such, is not my opinion, rather, it is a fact you may verify on your own Asbestos was fully banned in the UK in November 1999. The ban made it illegal to buy, sell, import or export any asbestos containing materials. Therefore, in my opinion, if your controller manufacture post dates 1999, then there is no need for any concern whatsoever regarding asbestos. Bee

Edit: Rob and I typed at the same time, just for clarity! Hello 96RAF I'm not sure of your description. Did you 1) Have an existing post, with an image, that you sent for moderator approval? That is, you wanted to edit and add to a post after first submission. 2) Have a post, with an image, that had not yet been submitted? That is, you were still editing and adding prior to first submission. I have indeed experienced issue 2. Mostly my own fault, but the behavior of the web page directly contributed. The web page keeps a local copy of your submission. As you add each character, the text is bounced to the server and back. This is why images really slow down the process, all the bytes in the image must be bounced as well. Leaving the page, for any reason whatsoever, loses you local copy and, since the server does not maintain a copy, your data is lost. It is the "leaving the page" part that is the culprit. Page forward, page back are the common causes, but if you are signed in temporarily AND the expiration of time arrives, then your page will be refreshed and your data lost. Any glitch in the cosmos will do it. Bee Do moderators approve their own images? Or must you wait like us commoners, until another moderator comes along?

Hello Colin Permit me a moment to express my condolences regards the death of your wife. While we may not have been aware of the dangers of asbestos long ago, we certainly are now. Thank you very much indeed for the alert. Bee

Hi LT&SR_NSE Welp, that explains why I couldn't find it. Not once did the word copyright, or copyrighted appear in the text. Thank you for drawing that to my attention. Bee

Hello Kim It is extremely unlikely that anyone would pursue a copyright infringement claim against a non-commercial post by enthusiasts. Further, while it may have eluded me, I can find no specific rules about using copyrighted images in a post. Hornby has let us know that their images are copyrighted. Bee

I grabbed the Hornby Turbomotive side elevation image and on it, superimposed the Railway Magazine's illustration. Atom, it is nearly a perfect match!

I searched and searched, but never found a boiler diameter for Turbomotive. I could identify the boiler as "LMS Type 1". The 1935 Railway Magazine dimensioned drawing may explain why there is no "diameter". It appears to be conical, not cylindrical. Perhaps you can scale the boiler diameter at various points Bee

While I was investigating another issue, I just happened to notice this vertical boiler locomotive in Nouveau Manuel Complet des Machines a Vapeur¹ ;Jean Louis Janvier 1838. In light of the interest shown with some other vertical boiler engines, I thought to bring it forward here. Janvier, sadly, does not tell us which railway utilized this engine. Figure 97 shows us the side elevation. The chimney has a spark arrestor. I think the front of the locomotive is to the right, the hook on the left to draw carriages and wagons being the giveaway. The pistons are mounted vertically and there appears to be a gear (!) peeking out of the frames. Figure 98 shows us a top view There are three (!) pistons. The driving axle has two gears on it. Note that the driving axle is not a cranked axle. Figure 99 is a sectioned elevation view. I found this most interesting, as it shows the internal arrangement of a vertical boiler. The internal steam dome is superheated by the flue which surrounds it. The boiler tubes work like any other steam locomotive, yet the arrangement deserves a bit of study. Note the horizontal tube to take steam from the steam dome and the diagonal tube returning exhausted steam to the chimney, proving to be the blast tube. Further, we see that the gears below the pistons and the gears on the main axle mesh, making this a gear driven (!) locomotive. The regulator control crank is shown on the footplate (right, about mid boiler high). Figure 100 is a plan section. Note the boiler tubes. We can see the gears and the main axle. That makes perfect sense. And then I am completely confused by the crank. I expected three crank webs, 120° apart. I see three crank webs, but not at 120°. It looks quartered. I do suppose I am asking too much. Janvier presents us with other drawings which have some issues. An example would be a bell crank locomotive we saw earlier, which could not function as drawn by Janvier. Is this another copy of a plagaristic copy, in which the mechanical detail is lost? I do think so. Yet the details of an 1838 vertical boiler are fairly interesting, making this worth a look Bee ¹New Complete Manual of Steam Engines

Hello Yelrow You aren't missing a thing. A retailer will often associate a slower moving item with a holiday. That is, the reason for the sale is that Hornby has noticed these two sets are leaving the warehouse just a bit slower than expected. They looked around, and decided to associate the sets with Christmas. This sale actually has little to do with Christmas. If it moves product, Hornby reduces inventory. Sure, the profit margin may be a bit smaller, but some money is better than no money with dead inventory in the warehouse. Do not expect there to be a Christmas Miracle and you will not be disappointed. There is little motivation on Hornby's part to discount pre-orders. Any Hornby production cost savings will be pocketed to offset the less than stellar performance of these two sets. Bee

A screw reverser adjusts the stroke and timing of a slide valve. Turbomotive had a turbine. Therefore, a screw reverser makes little sense. Bee

No offense taken Atom. Yours was a reasonable question. My hope is that the question was reasonably answered. In the Turbomotive discussions, a correspondent has expressed that a screw reverser was never installed on LMS6202. That makes perfect sense, a screw reverser adjusts the stroke and timing of a slide valve. Turbomotive had a turbine. Not a slide valve. This detail was improperly added by the Hornby designer, perhaps due to economic or schedule pressure on that designer. Maybe the designer just didn't think it through. My OO Planet will have things as correct as I can help it. I haven't any pressure to go fast. I am thinking it through and explaining what I can of that here, as LT&SR_NSE suggests. Documenting the details. Bee

You have it exactly right LT&SR_NSE. You just missed a few thousand steps 😉 Hello Atom You have asked a perfectly valid question. Exactly what is going on here, and why is the man taking an eternity to get to the point? Firstly, I have never designed a OO model before. I have, consequently, fallen into every trap and pitfall along the way. If there is a blunder to be made, you can rest assured I will manage to find it, the hard way. Example: Thinking I could make the sandwich frames full scale and then just shrink it. Whoops. Err, no. Secondly, I am quite sure that all of us have experienced the wait. The wait for a Hornby RTR model. The experience of designing my own has given me an appreciation for the tribulations Hornby goes through. It takes time. I shall never complain about the wait, ever again. Thirdly, I am a retired Engineer. I will therefore apply the discipline I learned though of decades of experience. Critical lessons in rework suggest that you want the design to work from end to end, before you make a single part. I rushed ahead with the Newman Miniatures tender, an error. Fourthly, I have a genuine interest in the details of how things work. So the minutia of what a lever on the tender does fascinates me. Just as the controls on Planet's footplate do. Understanding each element takes time. The preserved drawings are difficult to read and understand. There aren't any isometric views. I can't ask the designer any questions. But in the end, I now have a deep appreciation for Planet's details. I am not in a rush to complete this project. I could have just purchased Newman Miniatures Planet, fitted it with the too tall tender, and had it whizzing around my layout. But then the handles wouldn't oscillate, many of the details wouldn't be there, and I would not have the sense of accomplishment. I do get it. This is taking a long time. Far longer than I had anticipated. My intention is to build a model. I just haven't arrived at that step yet. Bee

Hello 81F Yes, Newman Miniatures on Shapeways is where I purchased my 'too tall for OO Planet' tenders from. The tender he designed is a very good match for Lion. The models are scaled up N scale models, somewhat adjusted for the OO squish. I think they are perfectly fine. Based on Newman Miniatures design of the tender, I would think the other models on offer to be pretty good too. When I asked the gentleman to quote some design changes, I realized that I would be better suited just doing it myself. Nothing against the gentleman at Newman Miniatures at all. Converting the Hanazono Motor Boggie to DCC looks ever so straightforward. The pickups run up the outside of boggie. Simply cut those leads, run a wire from the cut up to the decoder, and from the decoder to the contacts on top of the boggie, which lead to the motor. A clever lad like you, 81F, shall have no problems with this! Bee

The OO Tender is almost ready for submission to be printed. An overview of the OO Tender, as it stands The Hanazono motor boggie has protruding metal axles. They will be fitted with a cosmetic axle end. A simple cap. This hornguide will permit me to see the end of rotating axle. This type of hornguide was very common and appears in many period images. If you have the Hornby Rocket, it appears on that tender. Those handles on the front of the water tank control the flow of water out of the tender and across to Planet. Armengaud shows a cut away of this assembly. Note the handles used to get up onto the footplate, also present on the OO Tender. The OO Tender will be attached to the Hanazono Motor Boggie with the screw and then hidden under a coal load. Note the water fill tube on the rear tank deck. The water fill tube will have a working lid, hinge in the back. If you look closely, you will note I have insured a small gap betwixt the lid and the square tube. With the lid removed for clarity, you can see clearly down to the blue chassis and further down, the Hanazono Motor Boggie, in black. The Hanazono Motor Boggie vents warm air into this void. The gap at the lid will let warm air flow out. So not only will the lid open and close, but it also helps to ventilate the motor, keeping it cool. Lastly, the front coupling is set up for a draw pin draw bar, while the rear coupling matches the Hornby Fine Scale chain arrangement, both in red Bee

I much prefer it right way around, RDS, but will defer to Ducking Giraffe! Bee

As VESPA says, turbines were in service on US railroads. The Union Pacific GTEL (Gas Turbine Electric Locomotive) produced a phenomenal 10,000 lbs of tractive effort [see note below] and weighed in over 800,000 lbs! For a short video of the GTEL, its history and operation, to include sound, you may wish to see this The video includes operation of the GTEL doubleheading with a Big Boy! Did Turbomotive sound like this? Of course, I cannot say, but in this video, GTEL sounds like a any other turbine, typically associated with aviation. Bee Edit: that 10,000 is horsepower, not 10,000 lbs of tractive effort. Initial versions had 138,000 lbs of tractive effort, later versions had 212,000 lbs of tractive effort. UP indicated one GTEL could pull 735 fully loaded freight cars on straight, level track.

Hi Rana The Southern Pacific Cab Forwards were all oil fired. Thus, it was relatively easy to pipe oil forward from the tender. These were also massive articulated or mallet type locomotives, 4 pistons, 2 sets of driving wheels. Used for pulling heavy freight over the Sierra Nevada mountains. Bee

How long do you have to wait before the smoke clears? I will suggest a very long time indeed! For a single track line, the locomotive will act like a loose fitting piston. The locomotive will draw air from the tunnel, pulling the smoke with it. At first, I thought the smoke would continue for at least as long as the locomotive took to drive through the tunnel. But the locomotive is not a perfect seal to the tunnel, so it should take quite a bit longer than the locomotive took to drive thru the tunnel. ++++ The smoke was the reason why cab-forward steam locomotives were used in the USA. The enginemen were being suffocated on the smoke. The solution was to put the footplate (cab) forward of the chimney. Bee

Thank you Rana! The Wrightson and Co Ltd no 13 will serve as inspiration when I get around to Twin Sisters. I did have a look, and the views give an arrangement of controls and guages, mounted around the upright boiler. I don't know why I expected a backhead like plate, when the arrangement shown is much more practical. With the best view of Twin Sisters the Issac Shaw drawing, zero controls shown, you may understand why the guidance is needed Bee

There is nothing like genuine live steam. Once it gets to 7¼" gauge, the locomotives are magnificent. I follow a channel called "The Steam Workshop", where live steam British outline locomotives are built and maintained https://youtube.com/@TheSteamWorkshop Take a look at the videos list. It is truly a sight to behold. The Steam Workshop is also in the process of restoration of a full size Fowler steam engine. Another live steam locomotive that truly is my cup of tea is here: I won't tell you what it is, you will have to look for yourself. I have looked into buying, but swiftly realized that these are incredibly expensive if you want to purchase a completed locomotive, ready to run. Builds can take a very long time. A decade in the workshop, on your own, is not unheard of, and you still need to buy the machines. Result? I look on with envy, noting I will likely never have one. Bee

Hello Kim Just a short note to you. When the enthusiast wishes to discuss the shade of yellow used in lining vs the year, it is extraordinarily clear the enthusiast knows his stuff. While Turbomotive is not my era, your enthusiasm is infectious. Tip of the hat! Bee

Hello Rana Twin Sisters had wooden wheels. It was driven from the tender end. As expected given the time frame, the tender is a generation 1 tender: wooden barrel. It had two fireboxes, one under each vertical boiler. The small horizontal cylinder between the smoke stacks collects steam from both boilers before delivery to the pistons. We do not have a terrific amount of information as to controls. I expect a simple steam valve for admission to steam chest but not much more. The slide valves were coupled to eccentrics on the driven axle. George Stephenson was told by the board to get a locomotive to work the construction. Twin Sisters was the result of that order. It moved along at about 10 mph, just a little faster than a bicycle, but Twin Sisters could pull 50 tons! Not too shabby. Simple to model, just put the motor upright, worm gear down. Engage the worm wheel directly on the wheel axle. Plenty of room in that vertical boiler, especially when the rivet counters have never seen it before! 🙂 I am afraid there isn't too much more information. Dawson did a video, but brief would be an apt description of that video. Bee

On my make list is the LMR locomotive known as "Twin Sisters". Twin Sisters never had a number assigned. Twin Sisters was a Maintenance of Way locomotive, used in the construction of the LMR and MOW duties after opening, just like the Lancanshire Witch. Twin Sisters , drawn by Issac Shaw, known good observer Vertical boilers, plural. 0-6-0. Angled pistons.