What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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Good Old Fezziwig
The kind benevolent master of business. Generous to staff. What mistake did Fezziwig make? Fezziwig did not change with the times. He lost his business and fortune, preserving his way of life.
Retail is dying as we know it. The internet is playing an enormous role in this. When Hornby produces a model, does it really matter who you buy it from? Isn't it the same model? I can buy that model from 15 different retailers, or from Hornby themselves. What is the difference? The price?
Decades ago, before the internet, models were only available from retailers. You bought what the retailer had on the shelf or you traveled far and wide, to see what the other retailer had on the shelf. Now, I dial in the product number into Google, from the comfort of home, and have many, many choices, shipped directly to my home.
Ah, you say, but the model shop offered cogent advice and offered repair service. Repair service is a significant differentiator but expert advice is given freely, right here. I am in awe of the expertise, but no model shop is required. Further the advice given here is not targeted at another sale and is peer reviewed.
One complaint I do read about from retail stores is fundamental. They maintain a bricks and mortar store, paying rent, etc. The client comes in and inspects the product. Once the inspection is complete, the client goes right out to the internet, from within the store and price competes it on the very spot, right in front of the clerks. And then the client demands the lowest internet price.
Hornby "experiential" stores could complement the business. Experience the product as a showcase. Buy the product on the internet.
Don't be Fezziwig.
Clinging to the old ways, because it holds sentimental value, is a recipe for bankruptcy. The times are changing Hornby. Bricks and mortar retail is changing. Change with the times.
Bee
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Thank you for taking the time to show me the image Kim. Appreciated!!
Bee
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Hello Kim
I spent a bit of time poking around, hopeful of seeing the image. Alas, no luck. I did, however, find a statement on Wikipedia that Duchess of Albercorn did have a unique (Wikipedia words) "blue grey" livery. Further, 3 references were provided to support the assertion.
Perhaps they may be useful to you.
Hunt, David; Jennison, John; Meanley, Bob; James, Fred; Essery, Bob (2008). LMS Locomotive Profiles, No. 11 – The 'Coronation' Class Pacifics. Didcot: Wild Swan. ISBN 978-1-905184-46-0.
Jennison, John; Meanley, Bob; Essery, Bob; James, Fred; Hunt, David (2009). Pictorial Supplement to LMS Locomotive Profile No. 11 – The 'Coronation' Pacifics. Didcot: Wild Swan. ISBN 978-1-905184-62-0.
Binns, Donald (1988). LMS Locomotives at Work - 2, Coronation Class 4-6-2. Skipton: Wyvern Publications. ISBN 0-0-907941-32-X.
Bee
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Hello Kim
For what it is worth, I like the way it looks. Not my era or railway, of course, but the livery is quite fetching. Well done!
You've done the research and I recognize the enormous effort you've put into this. Research is often much harder than it appears. Did you have any photographs to go by?
Bee
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One quibble XYZ. A minor one to be sure, and certainly, you have more experience than I.
Isolating rail joiners can be utilized to create blocks. Blocks can be used to create block detection and further, with the right kit, transponding. Not only will you know the isolated block is occupied, but you can know which locomotive is occupying the block.
Now that feature set would be very useful for actual automation, and may be far beyond what Aussie Fred requires. Full automation is in my interests and therefore, 8 locomotives in simultaneous motion is not beyond reach.
Bee
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Development Continues
I've added it quite a number of controls and details. Steam Regulator. Sight glass. Firebox door. Clinker Cleanout door. Blowdown valves. A Timothy Hackworth Safety Valve and a Salter Safety valve, as per my research, detailed in my post "Under Pressure". Man way into boiler, so it can be riveted together.
The Steam Dome was cast and therefore had details unavailable to period machining.
Bee
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Boiler safety was certainly a consideration for the LMR. There is plenty of visual evidence and the LMR safety record vis boiler explosions is fairly remarkable. There was only one boiler explosion and it was not attributed to failure of the safety valve. Patentee did explode, the failure attributed, by the LMR inquest, to the draw bar being connected directly to the firebox, the boiler torn asunder by the load up an incline.
There are two types of safety valves used by the LMR. The first is a Salter Safety Valve. Yes, that famous UK company, established in 1760, still in business today making weighing devices. The other is a Timothy Hackworth Safety Valve.
Rocket
Depictions of Rocket, LMR#1, do not clearly show the safety valve arrangement. We can see a column on top of the boiler, thats likely the Timothy Hackworth Safety Valve, in an enclosure. But for all the contemporary Rocket depictions, I cannot find one with the Salter Safety Valve.
The OO Hornby Rocket has a Salter Safety Valve (herein after SSV) installed, and probably a Timothy Hackworth Safety Valve (herein after THSV).
Issac Shaw, a known good observer, does show Northumbrian LMR#7 with an SSV.
Northumbrian was certainly a Rocket-Class locomotive and we can therefore expect that other members of class had a Salter Safety Valve.
This depiction of a Rocket-Class locomotive shows a THSV, as well as an SSV. Most unusually, the THSV is shown without the tall vertical tube.
How do they work?
Here are both safety valves
Both operate as a function of internal boiler pressure vs spring force. The valve itself is either open or closed. When the internal pressure exceeds the applied spring force, the valve opens. When internal pressure is less, it closes. The difference in valves is the spring itself.
The SSV is essentially a coiled spring scale, the initial product of the Salter Company in 1760. The long lever arm is used to gain sensitivity. Note that the top nut could be adjusted by the enginemen to change the trip point of the SSV. This complaint is noted by Pambour, Traite Practique. The enginemen did fiddle with the setting so as to manage steam pressure.
The THSV is a stacked set of leaf springs, directly applying force to the valve without levers. The following image of an 1830s survivor shows us 30, 40 and 50 psi graduations. Moreover, notice the distinct correlation between the survivor and Armengaud's mechanical drawing. This builds tremendous confidence in what I can observe in Armengaud's drawings.
https://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10306470
The LMR enclosed THSV in columns, to prevent tampering and, it is theorized, to vent steam above enginemen heads
Other Hornby Era 1
These do not show a THSV or even the tall columns above the boiler. Each has a set of two SSV. This is consistent with Lion, preserved at the museum. Hornby cannot be faulted for leaving the Timothy Hackworth Safety Valve off of Lion. The fault lies with the restorers of Lion, not with Hornby.
But what about other depictions of locomotives, what do they show?
Liver LMR26, an Edward Bury locomotive, is depicted with both a SSV & likely THSV. Note the Transitional Tender, Generation 2.
Patentee LMR 33 has both an SSV and clearly a THSV column.
Fury LMR#21, a Fenton and Murray locomotive, shows an SSV and likely a THSV in a short column.
Issac Shaw, a known good observer, depicts Planet. We can be sure that this is Planet, with the name evident in the depiction. Not a Planet-class, rather, Planet LMR#9, herself. By the firebox, the SSV is visible just behind the steam dome. The THSV is shown in the column, clearly venting steam overpressure.
This depiction of Planet-class locomotive clearly shows SSV and, by the height of the tall columns, THSV.
It appears that the LMR utilized both types, often side by side on the same locomotive.
If you have these Hornby locomotives on your layout, you now know what some of the bits are!
Bee
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Normally, Hornby changes the expected release date to delay it. The item will come later than originally expected.
It is with a degree of excitement that I note that Hornby have hastened the expected release to Spring of 2024, in advance of the Summer of 2024. That's fairly unusual and indicates confidence.
Still no word if Adelaide will be providing the ubiquitous Queen Wave from the front observation compartment!! 🙂
Bee
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Thank you Going Spare, for the effort and report.
I think we have been the victim of the notorious "old cookie" problem. Odd interactions of old cookies with newly updated webpages.
96RAF, I do understand that it may be, as you suggest, the search function, but now GS and I have exactly the same performance, leading one to lend credence to it being the cookie issue. Not the first time this would be considered root cause.
Perhaps the web pages, upon update and loading to the client computer, delete old cookies. The objection will be "password" retention, the rejoinder will be "two cookies".
Bee
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Hi Going Spare
I tried again. Still nothing.
I deleted all cookies.
After that, I tried once more. All of the listings returned.
Would you please give this a twirl at your end to confirm? Thanks.
Bee
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As the title says, when shop by era, era 1 is selected, there are no items returned. Zero.
I have individual pages bookmarked and can confirm that there are indeed era 1 items available.
That shop by era, era 1 page appears broken.
Bee
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Hi Kim
May I recommend you camp out on the page for that item?
I do not think it a "con", rather, they allocated N locos in that production run, and sold them out, bing, bang, boom. Good on Hornby!
Hornby will likely increase the production numbers if it sells out that quickly, and this time around, be one of the lucky persons to grab one. Because you were watching
Cheers
Bee
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I counted 46 in consist, which is a good test. Here's a vote for reckless testing, go for 47.
I'd also like to see the 56 start from dead stop under a large load. Does it struggle or handle it effortlessly? That is down to the operator and the finesse at the controller, as much as locomotive tractive effort.
Well done Al, well done.
Bee
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Samson (LMR 13) and Goliah (LMR 15) are 0-4-0 versions of Planet (LMR 9), 2-2-0. There are a few essential differences, and I have been researching them. After all, in designing a OO Planet, I can get Samson or Goliah with minimal additional effort.
In that research, I encountered this image
Eduard Biot Manuel de Constructeur De Chemins De Fer, 1834.
The wheel arrangement indicates Rocket class. 0-2-2. The lowered cylinders are typical of the class. Rocket's higher cylinder angle gave the locomotive an ungainly wobble as the pistons worked against the springs.
The tender illustration is the prize however. It shows the same utility wagon used by the LMR, yet with a box, instead of a barrel. This is a generation 2 tender. Generation 1, the barrel arrangement; Generation 3, the purpose built tenders, like Lion and Tiger have
Other Generation 2 images will be found here, 2nd page:
Bee
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Herein I provide a specific example of how a concise, detailed public schedule can work against the publisher of that schedule.
Rapido obtained the rights for the Titfield Thunderbolt and announced a 1 March 2023 arrival in their warehouse. They would commence shipping to clients,1 March. I ordered one.
Hornby's range release 2022 included trains on film. I ordered the Lady with a Lamp set, as this came with typical LMR glass carriages, albeit un-named. Lion, in Lady with a Lamp and the Titfield Thunderbolt, was withdrawn under threat of suit from both the studio and Rapido. Yet Lion, the locomotive, cannot be so restricted.
What did Hornby do? Not only did Hornby announce LMR 57, Lion, but shipped in Fall 2022, stealing a march on Rapido.
Sure, but where does the true schedule play come in?
Many, like me, have an order for Rapido's Lion. I expected to have a competition, with one to be remade into Tiger, LMR 58. Hornby's range release 2023 included Tiger and shipped it well before 1 March, Rapido's date. I ordered and received Tiger from Hornby.
My Rapido order got canceled as I already had Tiger, no need for 3, although there is always Elephant, LMR 65 also by Todd Kitson and Laird. When they asked me why I was canceling, I told them honestly.
Hornby rearranged their factory order so as to beat Rapido to the punch, making an extraordinary effort to produce models that undercut Rapido. Hornby's Lion and Tiger arrived well before Rapido's scheduled date. That's business in a cutthroat industry. Too many cards on the table permits your competitors room to maneuver.
Yes, I would still like a quarterly update from Hornby. As detailed as can be. That would be great for me, keeping me informed. Unfortunately, that also informs Hornby's competitors.
Bee
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Re: the status page.
I have already gone on record, more than once, that Hornby status updates would be great.
For us.
But would it be good for Hornby? The scale train business appears to be quite cutthroat. The race to grab clients by being first to market with a new model is ever present.
One need only look at Hornby Competitor announcements that are met with a race to preempt that announcement with the same model from Hornby. A competitor retracting an offering, simply because Hornby announces.
Hornby is by far the preeminent OO gauge manufacturer. There are definitely other suppliers, but none can match the breadth of offerings. In being preeminent, with a huge catalog, the organization cannot be nimble. A ponderous organization. One that can be nimble only at certain times but certainly not all.
Therefore, a slow moving organization like Hornby can be overcome by a small nimble organization, simply because Hornby will have published exact status. A competitor need only beat the published data point.
That is, uncertainty works for Hornby, not against it.
Bee
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We previously observed how water arrived in Planet's boiler. We looked at the crosshead pump and there was some concern about that pump.
I spent quite a bit of time examining the Armengaud images for control features near to the footplate and cross referencing them to Pambour, another noted period author.
In doing so, I was able to understand Planet's water management scheme better. Firstly allow me to present the updated CAD Model
Further, here is a schematic diagram showing the valves. You can zoom this and any image
Annotated on OO Planet
I was always bothered by the squirt of the crosshead pumps. The squirt was used by the enginemen to confirm that the crosshead pump is indeed pumping water. When opened, a thin spray of water will be lofted into the air. The only time the pump functions is when Planet is rolling, yet the valve is buried down in the frame. How could the enginemen manipulate the valve? S1 and S2 are long levers that attach to the valves, easily accessible from the footplate.
Previously, we observed that the water from the tender could be shut off using FP1 (and or FP2). The concern was that the pump would be running dry. If E1 (and or E2) is additionally opened, water will be extracted from the boiler and then that water will flow into the intake of the crosshead pump. Where it is pumped back into the boiler! Note that E1 and E2 must extract water from deep in the boiler, not steam from high in the boiler.
Next we come to L1, L2 and L3. Armengaud is quite specific that L1 is at the steam level, while L2 and L3 are at water level. These vent directly to the air around Planet. Pambour calls them "Faucet Gauges" [literally "robinet-jauge"]
I think that they could be used to fill the boiler at the start. Open the Tender valves (T1 & T2), open the Footplate valves (FP1 & FP2), and all three Faucet valves (L1, L2 & L3). Water flowing into the Tender will seek level, flow through the ball seats (depicted by the blue ball & semi circle), and into the boiler. When the water level hits L3, it can be shut off and then, when water hits L2, the tender valves (T1 & T2) can be shut, filling the tender to the brim. L1 can be shut at leisure.
I can see L1 being used as a way to dump pressure in an emergency. Consider a situation of high overpressure, with both crosshead pumps destroyed. Open L1. That will be an exciting moment, as high pressure steam and boiling water is spewed into the air. Yet Planet will be saved.
That is my understanding so far. You must know that I do not have an operators manual, and anything I can glean from the arrangement is purely by mental exercise. I could be wrong or have missed something.
Your thoughts and views are encouraged! You may have a view that cracks the problem open.
Bee
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Hi Rocco
Do not pay Hornby ROW shipping rates for a part commonly available everywhere!
For example, here is an eBay search (US) that brings up many!
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ho+rail+joiners
BTW, I'm in the US as well.
Bee
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Hi JJ
Here R4801 is on Hattons
If not mistaken "composite" means two different classes of service in one rail car.
Bee
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Hi JJ
I took your Hornby number R1283M and searched for what it contained. It said the rolling stock it contained is:
- BR (exLMS) Composite Coach
- BR (exLMS) Brake 3rd Coach
I then looked up images of these two types of carriages. The image you show is an excellent match for Brake 3rd Coach.
Check Hornby R4801 to see if you agree!
Bee
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Hi Three Link
There are a few things to consider in your questions, which frankly, I do not know the answers to.
1) OO Planet has comparatively huge, clunky rods and levers when compared to the prototype. The prototype, as drawn by Armengaud, has comparatively much finer details. Certainly beyond the modeling realm with rod diameters approaching zero if properly scaled. There would be much better access on the prototype than on OO Planet. Look at the walking rods on Stephenson's drawing for an example.
2) The smoke box door is just a plate and is not hinged. I do suppose they could remove the nuts/bolts and slide that plate laterally off of Planet. Access would be permitted to internals without removing the walking rods.
3) All of the fixings are indeed bolted and threaded. So yes, the walking rods could be readily removed.
What surprised me about many of these fixings was the mixture of square nuts and hexagonal nuts. I truly expected 100% square nuts. Yet the Armengaud drawings show a mix.
4) About the shed staff. I don't know if you ever worked for a true genius. I did. The man had over 50 (fifty) US patents, predominantly in electric motors. You could discuss engineering points with him, but in the end if he wanted it a certain way, that was the way it was going to be. Even if it meant I was going to struggle with Manufacturing, who had choice words about practicality. Stephenson, in my eyes, was the locomotive genius of his day. The shed staff must have been in awe of their genius, as we were of ours.
Improvements in serviceability would come. It is indeed very hard to accurately predict what is required to service a novel mechanism.
Bee
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I left off with the left side valve gear in place. I indicated, at that time, that the right side valve gear should be relatively easy, as it was a mirror image. My goodness was I wrong!
The left side valve gear was drawn at top dead center. This meant that the right side valve gear, which is quartered, is 90° out of phase to the left side valve gear. In and of itself, drawing the right side meant copying the left side dimensions, albeit in a new orientation. How could that be hard?
Unfortunately, the quartering uncovered a major interference within the valve gear mechanism. If I was to attempt to run that valve gear, it would bind the system. The motor would stop rotating, unable to force the valve gear forward, likely burning it out.
The interference was between the eccentric rod follower and the eccentric rod.
After checking the dimensions several times, I realized the dimensions were correct. The root cause of the problem lay elsewhere.
At the front of Planet, the eccentric rods are connected to the walking rods and to the eccentric rod followers. As the eccentric rods thrust back and forth, the front of the eccentric rod is constrained in motion to an arc, the radius of which is the length of the walking rod; the length of arc defined by the eccentric rod stroke. Similarly the end of the eccentric follower, is also constrained to an arc, the radius of which is the length of the eccentric follower, the arc length defined by the self same eccentric rod stroke. These two arcs are at a fixed distance along the eccentric rod and indicate, for a given thrust of the eccentric rod, the vertical rise of each arc. Those rises are different!! Root cause found.
While this may be obvious in retrospect, that took quite a bit of thinking and studying to realize.As can be observed, the ends of the arc for the walking rod do not rise as high as the ends of the arc of the eccentric follower, for a given eccentric rod linear travel.
A parallelogram can freely rotate, but a trapezoid is locked. The control rods on the side of OO Planet form a parallelogram. The walking rod, eccentric rod, eccentric follower and smokebox face form a trapezoid, hidden in plain view.
The solution is to elongate the slot in which the eccentric follower rides, permitting compliance.
So why did I not see this? Armengaud shows us many things, but obscure details are not brought forward with reasons and explanations. They are left as an exercise for the reader to discover. This was one of those exercises.
Bi-Stable Mechanism
I added all of the clutch mechanism, shown in green.
I have no intention of making the clutch functional. It will be part of the static decoration of OO Planet, an integral component of appearance. Once again, they will be etched copper parts. To provide access to OO Planet internals, the clutch can be taken off, via those tiny 0000-160 screws.
The clutch control handles (2) are on top of the firebox: a left side and right side handle. The long control rods, on top of the boiler, connect through a pair of levers to the walking rods. When the clutch handles are drawn towards the engineman, the walking rods are lifted, which lifts the eccentric rods. This disengages the eccentric rods from the eccentric followers, in turn freeing the engineman to manipulate the curved handles and thus manually control the slide valves.
The length of the eccentric rod forward of the eccentics are held up by the walking rods with the entire weight of the walking rods sitting on the very front of the eccentric rods. That is a significant mass to keep elevated.
Did the engineman have to hold the clutch levers up? Didn't all that weight draw them back down?
No!
In the forward position of the clutch handles, the weight is supported on the eccentric follower. Indeed, the weight locks the eccentric rod onto the eccentric follower. It is stable in this position.
When the clutch handle rotates towards the footplate, that curve in the clutch rod comes into play. It brings the near end of the clutch rod beyond dead center. Therefore, the pull of the weight wants to draw the control rod through the axle of the clutch handle. It cannot, of course.
Therefore, the clutch is stable in the up position as well as the down position. The engineman need not hold the clutch handle. Elsewhere in travel, the clutch handle is unstable, and will be drawn by the weight forward until the eccentric rod rests on the follower. The eccentric rod will engage the pin of the eccentric follower, becoming stable.
A mechanism that is stable in two positions, but no other, is called a bi-stable mechanism.
Stephenson was well aware of a bi-stable mechanism. We can see this clutch rod curve in his drawing.
On the shoulders of giants.
Bee
Some images of the current state of the CAD, OO Planet
Close to the front
The green clutch control rods pull on the green levers, which lift the copper colored walking rods up. There are two independent controls, the left (fuscia) axle and right (blue) axles work independently. The clutch will be decorative (non-functional) for OO Planet
The lower portion of the smokebox face is filled with valve gear components. This image attempts to annotate my nomenclature.
[EDIT: Hysterically, I managed to leave out (D) Walking Rods.]
It should be noted that, once again, there are two halves, fuscia left, blue right.
The view from the footplate shows the four control levers.
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However it raises a question. Has anyone done any research on whether the little-but-often or the continuous long running is more detrimental to the engine’s long-term life?
Hello Gricer
One component is duck soup obvious. The electric brush type motor.
The brushes and commutator wear against each other. It is strictly a function of time until (typically) one of the brushes wears out.
The same amount of running time is achieved, yet in calendar time, the brief run model will outlast the continuous run model. It is perception. It lasted longer because the brush life was used more judiciously.
It is for this reason you will see references in industrial literature about brushless motors. There is no magic, instead of the coils rotating, the magnets do. The stationary coils produce the advancing magnetic field, which attract the permanent magnets attached to the rotor. Viola, no brushes and therefore no brush wear.
Bee
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Those who follow Oscar will already have been informed, but for those who don't, Oscar Paisley puts Polly on film
Bee
Bit of fun - Class 56 load test ..
in General Discussion
Posted
Effortless starts! The locomotive pulled away without any struggle at all. That's a real test.
The coefficient of stiction is almost always higher than the coefficient of friction for material pairs.
The rolling friction of the consist already in motion will take less tractive effort to stay in motion, than the tractive effort to cause the consist to begin motion.
We apply tractive effort to the standing consist, until the tractive effort overcomes the retarding stiction. Motion begins. At this moment, the retarding force drops, as the friction regime starts and the stiction regime ends. It takes a steady hand to accelerate the consist without banging or wheel slip.
Bee