What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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I much prefer it right way around, RDS, but will defer to Ducking Giraffe!
Bee
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As VESPA says, turbines were in service on US railroads.
The Union Pacific GTEL (Gas Turbine Electric Locomotive) produced a phenomenal
10,000 lbsof tractive effort[see note below] and weighed in over 800,000 lbs!For a short video of the GTEL, its history and operation, to include sound, you may wish to see this
The video includes operation of the GTEL doubleheading with a Big Boy!
Did Turbomotive sound like this? Of course, I cannot say, but in this video, GTEL sounds like a any other turbine, typically associated with aviation.
Bee
Edit: that 10,000 is horsepower, not 10,000 lbs of tractive effort.
Initial versions had 138,000 lbs of tractive effort, later versions had 212,000 lbs of tractive effort. UP indicated one GTEL could pull 735 fully loaded freight cars on straight, level track.
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Hi Rana
The Southern Pacific Cab Forwards were all oil fired. Thus, it was relatively easy to pipe oil forward from the tender.
These were also massive articulated or mallet type locomotives, 4 pistons, 2 sets of driving wheels. Used for pulling heavy freight over the Sierra Nevada mountains.
Bee
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How long do you have to wait before the smoke clears?
I will suggest a very long time indeed!
For a single track line, the locomotive will act like a loose fitting piston.
The locomotive will draw air from the tunnel, pulling the smoke with it.
At first, I thought the smoke would continue for at least as long as the locomotive took to drive through the tunnel.
But the locomotive is not a perfect seal to the tunnel, so it should take quite a bit longer than the locomotive took to drive thru the tunnel.
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The smoke was the reason why cab-forward steam locomotives were used in the USA. The enginemen were being suffocated on the smoke. The solution was to put the footplate (cab) forward of the chimney.
Bee
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Thank you Rana! The Wrightson and Co Ltd no 13 will serve as inspiration when I get around to Twin Sisters. I did have a look, and the views give an arrangement of controls and guages, mounted around the upright boiler.
I don't know why I expected a backhead like plate, when the arrangement shown is much more practical.
With the best view of Twin Sisters the Issac Shaw drawing, zero controls shown, you may understand why the guidance is needed
Bee
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There is nothing like genuine live steam. Once it gets to 7¼" gauge, the locomotives are magnificent.
I follow a channel called "The Steam Workshop", where live steam British outline locomotives are built and maintained
https://youtube.com/@TheSteamWorkshop
Take a look at the videos list. It is truly a sight to behold. The Steam Workshop is also in the process of restoration of a full size Fowler steam engine.
Another live steam locomotive that truly is my cup of tea is here:
I won't tell you what it is, you will have to look for yourself.
I have looked into buying, but swiftly realized that these are incredibly expensive if you want to purchase a completed locomotive, ready to run.
Builds can take a very long time. A decade in the workshop, on your own, is not unheard of, and you still need to buy the machines.
Result? I look on with envy, noting I will likely never have one.
Bee
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Hello Kim
Just a short note to you.
When the enthusiast wishes to discuss the shade of yellow used in lining vs the year, it is extraordinarily clear the enthusiast knows his stuff.
While Turbomotive is not my era, your enthusiasm is infectious. Tip of the hat!
Bee
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Hello Rana
Twin Sisters had wooden wheels.
It was driven from the tender end. As expected given the time frame, the tender is a generation 1 tender: wooden barrel.
It had two fireboxes, one under each vertical boiler.
The small horizontal cylinder between the smoke stacks collects steam from both boilers before delivery to the pistons. We do not have a terrific amount of information as to controls. I expect a simple steam valve for admission to steam chest but not much more.
The slide valves were coupled to eccentrics on the driven axle.
George Stephenson was told by the board to get a locomotive to work the construction. Twin Sisters was the result of that order.
It moved along at about 10 mph, just a little faster than a bicycle, but Twin Sisters could pull 50 tons! Not too shabby.
Simple to model, just put the motor upright, worm gear down. Engage the worm wheel directly on the wheel axle. Plenty of room in that vertical boiler, especially when the rivet counters have never seen it before! 🙂
I am afraid there isn't too much more information. Dawson did a video, but brief would be an apt description of that video.
Bee
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I have seen a photo of one standard gauge loco with a vertical boiler but what looks like a standard tank loco chassis with almost horizontal cylinders, it would make an interesting model.
On my make list is the LMR locomotive known as "Twin Sisters". Twin Sisters never had a number assigned. Twin Sisters was a Maintenance of Way locomotive, used in the construction of the LMR and MOW duties after opening, just like the Lancanshire Witch.
Twin Sisters , drawn by Issac Shaw, known good observer
Vertical boilers, plural. 0-6-0. Angled pistons.
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Palmer's diagram is far more than vertical pistons.
The unique feature set is the longitudinal drive axle and bevel gears.
The Shay locomotives have just that, but instead of the scissors coupling, they used a splined axle coupling to take up the longitudinal flexibility. The front and rear biggies rotate just like any other on the Shay.
While Palmer may not have physically realized his design, the design is actually functional
Bee
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Hi LT&SR_NSE
I think that moderating is a hard job and further that the lads do it well. But that has little to do with my suggestion.
I simply cannot understand why Hornby goes through all the effort to create a forum for enthusiasts without participating, even peripherally, in it. It seems like a miss to me. When someone writes in with a genuine complaint, first they have to know to look for a response (no notification) and then if they do manage to find a response, they read that they have wasted their time. Why? Incomprehensibly, Hornby doesn't participate in their own forum. That person then needs to write the same message again, only this time to an email address. To the same customer service representative who could have seen it here.
This has little to do with the moderators, except that the moderators may have to write the email saying 'please contact customercare@hornby.com Hornby doesn't monitor these pages' instead of one of us saying it.
This is just my thought. No one is obligated to do anything with it. Except if I win PowerBall tomorrow!
Bee
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Hello AndyMac
You asked, how much would an online a Hornby Representative cost.
My answer: £0.0
There are already customer service representatives who handle issues most adroitly. Simply have the existing representatives respond. In essence, they do already. Person who approach the forum first are directed to a customer service representative.
What is the cost benefit ratio? I have mentioned the goodwill engendered and further mentioned the confusion encountered by many. This eliminates the confusion, adds good will.
A ratio is a computation. Division by zero yields infinity.
I do understand that the existing reps might be too busy to also handle issues here and there may therefore be an associated cost increment. But I have no evidence of manpower loading in any department at Hornby, let alone customer representatives to make an informed judgment
Bee
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Spot on Barry. I have seen any number of persons come here, thinking that they are speaking directly to a Hornby Representative.
It is frankly astonishing to me that Hornby does not have a customer service representative monitor these pages. Even better would be a dedicated area, like Wish Lists or General Discussion, termed "Talk to a Hornby Representative", wherein the correspondent gets exactly that.
Goodwill is created when others see reasonable issues handled in a professional manner. Example: suppose my locomotive came without a part and I write a post. Hornby responds with an apology, and says, we will send you that part. If this is in a public arena, you will see this and say to yourself, 'If something happens to me, Hornby has me covered."
I know the moderators meet with Hornby representatives, perhaps the issue can be raised in that meeting
Bee
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Hello Paul
A DCC ready locomotive does NOT have a decoder. It has a shunt, to permit DC operation.
For this reason, there is no decoder to interrogate and no response will be forthcoming
Bee
Edit: yup, not familiar with the set and mislead by the terminology OP used. My mistake.
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I could see using a PLC to switch signals on a DC layout. I've used them in other, professional applications and could easily see them used there.
Yet for a DCC layout, the logic would be better located elsewhere.
Bee
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Welcome back to this month's installment of Railway Oddities, the result of my survey of early railway books.
During last month's discussion, Rana Temporia mentioned crank axle driven locomotives. Feast your eyes on the 1823 method of "propelling railway carriages"
In the front of the locomotive, observe the two vertical pistons and the crank axle below.
The front axle appears fixed in angle relative to the carriage, but the rear axle rotates relative to the long axis of the carriage. There is a scissor type coupling to take up axial displacement, as the carriages are chained together. Additionally, a universal coupling is added to take up angular displacements.
When I first observed this image, the engineer in me started thinking about the torque being driven through the scissors coupling and the utter impracticality of the arrangement. However, in a moment of clarity, I remembered Shay Locomotives, which have just this arrangement, albeit without the scissors
While this has nothing to do with the LMR, RT's remark brought this image forward!
Enjoy!
Bee
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I've been a member of various forums and discussion groups for decades.
I just happen to think that this forum is one of the most polite and good natured forums I have ever been on.
From my viewpoint, even when there is some quibble or misunderstanding, it is handled politely and without rancor.
I also get that sometimes I may stray and don't mind being shoo'd back into line.
The "no notification" policy is so unique that it is entirely unexpected. Folks ask for help and get the sound of crickets. There may be 100 helpful suggestions, but they aren't seen, as there is no notice. They do not expect that, given the nature of all the other comment boards. And no, a first time poster, asking for help, is extremely unlikely to wade through rules and regulations in long form text.
If I help someone, and they do thank me, I think that very nice. If they don't, I get the internal satisfaction that I tried. Maybe the person being helped didn't like my answer or suggestion. Maybe I was dead wrong. Maybe they were having a bad day. Let it go, a thank you isn't a requirement. It is very nice to hear, and a plus when it happens. Celebrate the win, enjoy the moment.
Bee
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Tender Development
I left off with a tender that was too tall and suggested I needed a shorter tender.
The baseline was the Hanazono motor boggie. The question then being, can I fit the appropriate tender size around it.
In this image, you can see the tender. Currently, the top of the tank is 26.5 mm over the rails. As a reminder, the top of OO Planet's firebox is 27 mm over the rails. So, if anything, this tender is just a pinch short.
In this image, the Hornby tender for Tiger is photographed. The calipers are set to 0.5mm. We can observe that the rivets are at that dimension. This matches nicely to the rivet spacing presented by Armengaud. Scaled to OO, the rivets are 0.54mm apart.
Here, I show the proposed rivets for my tender. I do think a resin printer should pick some of these up. Fingers crossed.
Finally, we come to the handrail. James Nasmyth and Issac Shaw both show a tender with a handrail. Both are known good observers.
I can see one possible reason why the handrail was dropped and a flange added. Drawing the handrail has lots of little parts, all of which would need making and assembling. Far easier to wrap a flange and rivet it to the tank.
But for authenticity, Planet's tender should have a rail, just like Issac Shaw illustrated. It should print quite nicely. Pity the reproduction at the museum didn't follow the Shaw illustration
What's next
Coupling Attachment points, and the draw bar to OO Planet.
Valve handles to permit the flow of water.
Springs and Horn guides.
Some more seams and rivets on the tank
Tank fill port.
Bee
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James Nasmyth was a notable engineer of the 1800s.
One of his inventions was a machine for the production of hex nuts. Prior to his invention, hex nuts were hand filed, but as you can imagine, this did not yield repeatable results. While it may seem obvious to a modern machinist, Nasmyth coupled a rotary indexing table with 6 detents and a grinding wheel to cut the 6 sides.
Nasmyth had many other inventions, for example the steam hammer.
He was such a noted inventor that Samuel Smiles provided us with his biography*. In the biography of Nasmyth, we find that he is an observer, albeit briefly, of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway.
Known Good Observer
He arrived in Liverpool to observe the LMR, just before opening. As he states, he observed George Stephenson acting as engineman and Robert Stephenson the stoker (fireman) working a locomotive in multiple short trips. Nasmyth mentions them attaining 30 miles per hour, "a speed then thought almost incredible".
Then, at last, the locomotive came to a halt for about an hour at midday. Nasmyth took the opportunity to sketch the engine. "I eagerly availed myself of the opportunity to make a careful sketch of the engine, which I still preserve." This makes him a known good observer. This is that sketch, unavailable elsewhere online.
Rocket / Northumbrian Confusion
Throughout the paragraphs of text, Nasmyth refers to the locomotive as Rocket. Indeed, the sketch itself includes a note referring to the engine as Rocket. He also notes that Rocket led the procession on Opening Day.
The only problem with this is that the order of the procession on Opening Day is formally preserved and well known. The first locomotive in line was Northumbrian, hauling the Duke of Wellington's carriage.
Nasmyth's sketch of the locomotive matches other known images of Northumbrian.
Nasmyth's confusion over the name can be forgiven. Northumbrian was the last locomotive to arrive at the LMR just before Opening Day. It was also the best locomotive, and straight out of Robert Stephenson's locomotive works. Hence the Stephensons' excitement in working the locomotive and why it was selected to haul the Prime Minister, aka the Duke of Wellington. Nasmyth likely assumed that Rocket, which won the Rainhill Trials, would be the engine exercised by such famous engineers as the Stephensons. Alas, Rocket was already antiquated!
The Tender
Northumbrian arguably had the first generation 3, or modern tender. In the image of Opening Day, we can observe 3 locomotives with a generation 1 tender, or the barrel on a utility wagon type. The fourth locomotive is Northumbrian, coupled to the Duke's fabulous carriage, image by Shaw
Understandably, that is a bit hard to see. The locomotive is on the left, under the arch. Focusing on that part, we have
Shaw, a known good observer, also presented us will a detailed view of Northumbrian.
Firstly, no tophats, again. Apparently only gentlemen wore them, not the working class.
Secondly, the tender had a handrail! Why would that be? Armengaud gives a dimension from the floor of the tender to the top of the tank. 650 mm or ~25". Knee high! In consideration that there would be coal there, the tank would be shin high. The stoker stood every chance of falling out. A handrail was necessary.
Nasmyth also provided us with a partial sketch of the Liverpool Rd terminus station in Manchester. There may be other sketches by Nasmyth of the LMR, tucked away in one of his notebooks stored in a museum in Scotland. Alas, the content of those sketchbooks is not online.
Bee
*Samuel Smiles, you may recall, also provided us with the biography of George and Robert Stephenson.
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Perhaps now you may see why I have proposed an encoder. The number of vanes does not correspond to the number of chuffs per revolution for an encoder. Rather, it serves to divide up the disk into parts, termed "counts". Once the reference is found, we can can keep counting up or down as each count occurs. Thus the cuff occurs on a specific count total.
But Bee, I hear you say, if a count is a vane, it is the same thing, isn't it? Nay Nay!
Put a light receiver on one side of the vanes, an emitter of light on the other side. The vanes alternatively block and permit light. Properly grated, the receiver will detect a sinusoidal light level. Put two emitters, and shift one such that it is 90° out of phase to the other. Now you have Sine and Cosine! With Sine and Cosine, you have a circle (lissajous) for each vane. Divide that circle or lissajous mathematically into 8 parts (45°) and now you have 8 counts per vane or 64 counts per full disk revolution.
You may see that I can divide the lissajous into any number of arbitrary counts. The multiplier we used, back in the 1980s, for our own self designed encodering systems was 256, or 256 counts per lissajous. 8 vanes then yields 2048 counts per one disk revolution.
Assign a chuff to occur at counts 512, 1024, 1636 and 2048. Viola!
Works for any number of chuffs. 6 chuffs per disk revolution? Divide 2048 counts by 6. 8 chuffs per revolution? Divide 2048 by 8, yielding a chuff every 256 counts.
Therefore, one disk works for every/any locomotive, independent of the number of chuffs per encoder disk revolution. Its done mathematically, not a direct trigger.
I think the easiest way to see this effect is to put the palms of your hands together, fingers spread. Rotate one palm against the other, observe the light coming thru your fingers. We can sample that light, and determine its intensity. That gets you Sine, as per above.
Again, I have no insider knowledge and could be absolutely incorrect. This is just my guess. An educated guess, based on experience, but still a guess.
Bee
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Hi Tolak
Diplomatically, the name of this thread is "Black Five smoke unit". Forgive me if I am wrong, as that locomotive isn't in my era, but I thought it only had 2 cylinders. I could be wrong, but ....
So 4 chuffs, 90° apart.
Consider the disk with 8 vanes. Rising edge triggered, you get 8 triggers per rotation. Falling edge triggered, you get 8 triggers per rotation. Level triggered will require a low pass filter to inhibit a stuttering trigger.* But even that will be 8 triggers per rotation.
Of course, we can skip every other trigger, getting back to 4 triggers per rotation.
But if you pick the wrong edge on power up, you can be 45° out of phase with the valve gear. So you rotate the disk relative to the shaft to align it. Power down, and back up. Did it pick the right edge?
I look forward to seeing how Hornby do this. If the phase relationship is only good to 45°, however, customer dissatisfaction will be very evident.
Bee
*watch out for higher speeds, such that the low pass filter doesn't filter out required triggers.
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Hi Atom
Agreed, and they are not! I would suggest that they are almost never in synchronous timing.
The two sets of valve gear are independent on the prototypes. There is no guarantee that driving set one matches driving set two. Maybe on a model, but frankly, that isn't prototypical.
Bee
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For those who need the link
Bee
OO Planet - Development
in General Discussion
Posted
The OO Tender is almost ready for submission to be printed.
An overview of the OO Tender, as it stands
The Hanazono motor boggie has protruding metal axles. They will be fitted with a cosmetic axle end. A simple cap.
This hornguide will permit me to see the end of rotating axle. This type of hornguide was very common and appears in many period images. If you have the Hornby Rocket, it appears on that tender.
Those handles on the front of the water tank control the flow of water out of the tender and across to Planet.
Armengaud shows a cut away of this assembly. Note the handles used to get up onto the footplate, also present on the OO Tender.
The OO Tender will be attached to the Hanazono Motor Boggie with the screw and then hidden under a coal load. Note the water fill tube on the rear tank deck.
The water fill tube will have a working lid, hinge in the back. If you look closely, you will note I have insured a small gap betwixt the lid and the square tube.
With the lid removed for clarity, you can see clearly down to the blue chassis and further down, the Hanazono Motor Boggie, in black. The Hanazono Motor Boggie vents warm air into this void. The gap at the lid will let warm air flow out. So not only will the lid open and close, but it also helps to ventilate the motor, keeping it cool.
Lastly, the front coupling is set up for a draw pin draw bar, while the rear coupling matches the Hornby Fine Scale chain arrangement, both in red
Bee