What About The Bee
-
Posts
1,944 -
Joined
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Store
Posts posted by What About The Bee
-
-
Hello Tony57
My limited research presented cattle (at shoulder height) ranging from 53" to 65", breed dependent. Fairly broad range. Yet a cow is a cow. An HO cow is likely close enough to pass muster for a OO cow.
I'm having enough difficulty with geometric shapes. I will be unlikely to design and print my own cattle. I will be left with commercially produced cattle, may as well be OO, may as well be Hornby.
I do have control over the height of the top rail of the slat sides. So given the shoulder height of the commercially produced cattle, I can adjust the design to match this appearance.
Still hopeful someone has Hornby cattle R7131 and can help me out. Failing that, one more request to Customer Care will be in order
Bee
-
Hi Simon
Those two carriages do appear to be the same. Some of the finer artifice is missing, possibly scavenged by souvenir hunters. I do find it odd that a royal carriage would not have been preserved inside, out of the elements.
The LBR used Bury locomotives in the 1840s. 1840s Bury locomotives have that distinctive firebox shape. Queen Victoria's Saloon would have been pulled by a Bury 2-2-0. Not by Lion, Tiger or Rocket; Hornby's current array of era 1 locomotives.
Hornby do not have a Bury locomotive in the catalog. I have a suspicion that Hornby would model Bury's Copperknob 0-4-0, instead of a generic Bury 2-2-0; Copperknob being a survivor.
This entire discussion will apply to Queen Adelaide's Saloon, a detail I will ignore in my acquisition of R40357. I pre-ordered R40357 within minutes of Range Release, patiently awaiting any update. No photographs have emerged of engineering or pre production samples.
Bee
-
Hello 81F
I do think Red Sea Eagle is referring to the current Coronation Scott carriages R4005x, where x=1,2,3,4 etc. In the catalog now.
Online reviews of these carriages show them lighted. A beautiful bit of kit, if you ask me.
But one reviewer said "constant on" and another demonstrated the lights coming on when track power was applied under DCC and then, switching over, on DC.
No reviewer spoke of any type of control. The lights came on and stayed on.
Bee
-
When I self review a design, I must have a gap between when I design and when I review. It is always a good idea for me to let something simmer and think about what doesn't sit right.
Here goes:
Dependent on breed, a cow has 4'6" shoulder height, roughly speaking. When I observe the cattle in the Ackermann long prints, the cattle shoulders are well above the top rail. First change, therefore, is to lower the top of the top rail to 45½ scale inches. That is ~9 scale inches below OO Scale cattle shoulders.
I would greatly appreciate a measurement of shoulder height from someone who has Hornby OO cattle. R7121
I noticed when looking at the wagons that Ackermann shows 4 rails on the slat sides.
The cattle leg may be seen standing on the floor, right by the pink arrow. The 4 rails above the floor are enumerated. Since my previous drawing only had 3 rails, this has been corrected.
Ackermann does not show how the slat sides are put together, leaving that detail up to the imagination. I imagine that there would be slender rods hammered over into rivet heads on either end. They would be staggered, to prevent a heavy slat side from acting like scissors when handled. As such, I added the fine detail of the rivets protruding. I will likely touch these with black permanent marker after painting, to emphasize the rivets.
The last change is a technical one. I intend these printed at Shapeways. There are minimum print dimensions for certain features. The bolsters needed a tweak, which bears mention.
So after these changes, the livestock wagon looks like this
Scroll back up to see how it appears vs the earlier design. Slightly shorter, 4 rails on slat sides and rivets. The bolsters are different, but it simply isn't obvious.
Bee
-
Hello Simon
The image you present has an RGB color code of 61, 73, 85. This is far, far away from the other photograph.
Matt's referenced photo is from 1987; yours from 1988, per the captions. The captions indicated wrecks, implying repaint.
I have no illusions about which color is correct or appropriate. This isn't the railway of my interest, nor of its details. I simply was trying to get MattR to see a way forward for his image and color choices. Professionals use color codes. Color codes can be extracted, albeit with some variation as it is sampled.
The best approach would be to get the color code from the records, as it was painted. Failing that, sample the locomotive directly, if is available in the livery of interest, noting that colors fade over time. Failing that, a color image will do. Etc.
Each, in turn, will provide less fidelity. But unless absolute precision is demanded (example, a new advertisement requiring the specific corporate shades) a photo will be fairly close enough.
Perfect? Probably not.
And I do not think you "failed". You added valuable input to getting us closer to Matt's image and color. Even another photograph, albeit probably a repaint. Thank you!
Bee
-
Hello DRC
How do you intend to run the railway? By that, I mean standing up or sitting down.
One channel I follow insisted that the baseboards be at his shoulder height, such that the height of eye was perfect for immersion as he follows the locomotive around the layout. Less backdrop will be required to fill the field of view, as the eye will be closer to it.
Some layouts are run while sitting down. The control panel is there and so is the operator. The backdrop should be larger, in an attempt to fill the field of view.
In the end, there will always be the hard edge between the real and layout world. Inescapable.
I also utilize my loft, albeit not for a layout. The affect of a sloping eve is a hard limit on utility when standing.
Whilst I very much commend you for forward thinking (the 6 P's of Engineering), the 100 mm delta in height of backdrop is a smaller affect when the delta in height of eye is considered.
Respectfully presented for consideration
Bee
-
Simon's recommendation, color sampled. Closer yet!
Instead of color sampling swatches, Railmaster probably has a color code associated with these paints. May I strongly recommend you find that.
Secondly, if there are a few images of 47522, they should be sampled as well. The more we have, the better the result. Simon is correct, 1 image is subject to all kinds of subtle influences.
Interestingly, if I sample the roof near the top, instead of the previous locations, I get a near match for Simon's recommendation!
Bee
-
Hello MattR
Rather than an opinion, I will use science. An image may be color sampled, and the color codes extracted. I prefer to work in RGB, but other codes are presented.
I sampled the photo in 4 places to determine the roof color. Note that some small variation is present, but I get an average RGB of 224, 215, 200. The location of each sample is shown, and the associated color codes.
I then pulled up your two colors and sampled them, as I could not immediately find the color code.
Railmatch silver grey is closest at RGB 206,208,195.
Railmatch diesel roof grey further away at RGB 169,168, 150
Be aware that colors presented on the web may not precisely match true colors.
Further, for a best match, we should sample the roof in many places and then take the color code to a store to dial in the color directly.
Bee
-
Hi Atom
Ignore aerodynamic drag at your own peril. Mallards steam locomotive record will stand.
Bee
-
Hello Son of Triangman
Since the purpose of your motorisation project is automated motion, may I request a link to a video? When you are ready, of course!
Thank you
Bee
-
Keep it coming RT.
The Lancashire Witch is quite the notable locomotive. The very first locomotive ordered by the board of the LMR, for the LMR. Some on the board opposed George ordering from his son Robert (nepotism) and hence a possible reason why Lancashire Witch was transfered to the Bolton and Leigh.
The Lancashire Witch did perform ballast duty with Twin Sisters, in the construction of the LMR. Lancashire Witch did work the LMR, yet never in a revenue generating sense.
The valve gear may not be so evident, and is presented here. The oscillating handles present on Rocket and Planet are here as well, green arrow.
The handles, as you may recall, permit the engineman to manually control the slide valve and admission of steam. Notice where they are, indicative of the tiny size of the boiler.
Bee
-
Hello Jon
It is very difficult to provide specific help to a question without specificity in the request.
What is needed is the model number, example Rxxxxx. From this, we can hopefully get to a service sheet.
As it stands now, we do not have a lot to go on
Bee
-
Today ( 13 December 2023 ) there is exciting news.
The Hornby website, for R30090, has been updated. The expected season of arrival has been updated to [blank]. It was Winter 23-24, but now reads [blank].
It has been my observation that this is an indication of imminent arrival. Yet I could be reading too much into this.
For those of us waiting for this carriage ... Hooray!! Less than a year after 10 January 2023 Range Announcement. Perhaps Hornby are catching up with the backlog. Fingers crossed.
For those interested in how the website functions, this is an interesting test case. Is a [blank] season an indicative tea leaf of imminent delivery? If the state transitions to "in stock" by 31 December, then the answer is yes!
Bee
-
Hello Sam
One thing I have found very useful when attempting to fix electrical issues is to draw the schematic.
Every component. Every wire. Each part of the circuit.
If it includes a circuit card, label each connection. Find the technical data sheet for that card.
Often times, when I do so the error itself jumps off of the page and into my lap. You may very well spot the error on your own.
Failing that, post your diagram here. The brain trust¹ here will spot it.
Bee
¹I am decidedly in the peanut gallery! 🙂
-
Bob,
Details about ballast will be found in the "previous page". A simple heads up. Hornby uses a slightly unusual navigation feature and you may miss the answer. Use the special Hornby navigation tab below. Your question was one I had not considered before and thus you have extended my knowledge. Thank you!
÷÷÷
Hi Simon
Your proposal also makes sense and this is what makes interpretation of the 2 century old data so difficult. We cannot assume that the LMR followed the standard model, they were busy creating it!
Could Bury have erred when drawing a minor building? Sure, the facilities on the other side of the tracks, including the hot water plant, were far more impressive and likely to catch the eye. It is entirely possible for the small building differences to be artist error.
As Three Link says, though, the building may simply have been reconstructed over time. I certainly cannot firmly decide this matter.
The thing that solidifies the location of the building is the fill spigot near the small building. This brought hot water to the locomotives. There would likely only be one hot water plant, not two, implying hot water was piped under the track during construction of the line. A fixed asset of railway infrastructure. What ever the shape or artistic rendering of the small building, the location of the hot water fill spigot seems definite and thus the building.
There also is the concern of plagiarism, an artist merely copying someone else's image. There is one notable Bury lithograph which is clearly and definitively plagarised from Booth. Yet Bury also offers unique depictions which cannot be plagiarized.
I do wish that photography had been invented a few decades earlier.
Bee
-
Hello Jules,
As this is your first post, welcome aboard.
Now as to your questions, there can be no answer in this forum. Why? Because Hornby, rather surprisingly, maintain no presence here.
Since speculation will be fruitless, may I recommend you contact
with your questions.
I have asked similar questions in the past about other models still under development. They will ask the engineering staff, and you will very likely receive an answer to your queries. If and when you do, please do share with the forum.
Hint: when asking your questions, number them. Make them specific. Reference the model number: Rxxxxx
Bee
-
Hello Bob
You asked about ballast. This really needs to be a track bed question to answer your query completely. Nicholas Wood "A Practical Treatise on Railroads..." 1838 provides us with the requisite data. Within that authoritative tome is Plate V, which will provide us with informative sketches.
The Lithographs
In image after image, the artwork sold to the public that represents views of the LMR shows track and rail, all without ballast. Just scroll to my previous response about Parkside, and look specifically at the track and track bed. It appears as if the track is simply buried in the soil. This is a very consistent representation. No ballast, buried track. We never see chairs. We never see sleepers, stone or otherwise.
Nicholas Wood
Practical Treatise is the go to tome on early railways, authored by a participant in the development of those railways. If Nicholas Wood says something, it is on good authority. The description he offers for the track bed is the recommended practice, not necessarily the actual practice of any one railway in specific, unless he so states.
There is ballast used under sleepers. It consisted of anything that would pass through a 2.5 inch aperture, the depth of about 9 to 12 inches.
Double track mainline should have a gap of 6 feet between the outside edges of the inside rails. It should be noted that the initial gap for the LMR was set to 4 feet 8.5 inches, such that a locomotive could run down the middle of the two lines, although there is no record of this ever having occurred.
Drainage ditches should be 1.5 feet wide, on the outside of the track bed, which you may observe in Plate V
Figure 1, top left corner, merely shows that the track will remain level as the ground undulates, requiring cuttings and embankments
Figure 2, left side, shows a cutting in cross section.
Figure 4, shows the plan view of a double line. Note that one line is wooden sleeper, the other diagonal stone sleeper blocks. Drainage may be present between the two lines, and it is brought to the drainage ditches on the outside of the lines.
Figure 3, left side, shows a cross section of an embankment. The location of the ballast is most evident in this cross section. The ballast is UNDER the sleepers. With the sleepers firmly seated, fill is placed around the sleepers to hold them in place. This is entirely consistent with the lithographs sold to the public. Fill to about 3 inches under the tops of the rails.
Moving to the right hand side...
Figure 10, top right, is a cross sectional view of an LMR level crossing. The stone work you see would be all buried, with the top of the rail level with the top of the blocks. Three vertical columns of ballast for drainage are most evident.
Figure 12 provides us with a crystal clear view of the ballast under stone sleeper blocks, surrounded by fill, with the fill brought up to the top of the rail.
Figure 14 provides us again with the ballast location, but here without the small fill retainers. Note however, you will still only observe fill, not ballast
Figure 16, bottom right corner, shows the drainage arrangement on a bridge.
You may note I have skipped over some figures. These should be self evident upon inspection but if you require further information, simply ask. I didn't think those figures germane to the discussion.
Conclusion
An authentic representation of LMR track will be just as you observe in the Parkside image by Bury: buried.
Bee
-
However when it's on the track it sounds like the motor is racing and the wheels are slipping,
I missed this in the initial review of the problem, focusing instead on the "motor is racing"
Rather, the important bit is that "the wheels are slipping". From this, I infer that the wheels continue to turn, but they are slipping. Wheels that do not turn, cannot slip.
My current line of thought is that the wheels are turning inside the traction tires. With the wheels held steady, it will be possible to rotate the tires relative to the wheels, if the line of reasoning is correct. Little torque will be required.
Scott mentions 1981. A tire could easily have relaxed in the past 42 years.
Bee
-
Tony
If I might offer a line of thought.
Mastery of a 3D printer will have little value without mastery of the thing that feeds it.
The thing that feeds the printer is the intellectual property, the 3D design.
A 3D design can always be printed by Shapeways (or others), once the design is made.
May I suggest you play with and master the design tool first.
Bee
-
Available for viewing in the US.
-
But wait! There's more! These are in the showman engine family but are still steam powered, much like a locomotive.
1824 Gordon's Steam Carriage
David Gordon's steam carriage has 6 feet, instead of Brunton's 2. It is my estimation that this device could only be made to function on flat ground. If the ground was rough, a foot would attempt to lift the carriage, likely leading to the mechanism being bent and deformed. There is no record of commercial success, although a prototype does appear to have been constructed.
Danger was evident, it used a weighted, not spring powered, safety valve, clearly evident in the image
1827 Gurney's Steam Carriage
Sir Goldsworthy Gurney (yes, Goldsworthy was his name) also participated in the walking engine family. The primary method of propulsion was wheels on a crank axle. Yet for steep hills, Gurney added "propellers" as he called them, yellow arrow.
These were coupled to pistons, providing a linear stroke to propell the carriage when the going got tough. Regular service between London and Bath was provided, averaging 14 mph.
Note the shape of the inside carriage and its resemblance to coaches of the period and the LMR First Class carriages. This was the accepted and expected shape.
He later coupled carriages behind the engine, when the heat of the engine became uncomfortable for passengers and the danger of explosions evident.
Sir Gurney discarded the propellers :(
And that, fellow oddity enthusiasts, ends the walking engines in early steam history.
Bee
Post Script. I do realize that the Brunton article was quite long, even by my own standards. Yet the vehicle was so strange as to defy belief and deserving of complete coverage. I do hope that you visited Adrian's page of the model, link above!
-
Here is a wagon under construction by a master of the trade, Dave Engel. The orange arrow points to one of four bolsters visible in this image. The small yellow arrow points to where the post would sit. The bolster is inboard of the post. Find the other bolsters and you will understand the preferred arrangement.
But Bee, I hear you say, where are the straps on the bolster? The bolsters on this wagon are "ring type". These rings are trapped under the bolster strap, making the strap and each ring into two, two link chains. In use, the rings are brought horizontal and the post will thread down through the rings. This holds the post to the bolster.
Bee
-
Hi Simon
My bolsters are based on actual wooden wagons. I provided an image of an actual bolster in the original post.
Now the tricky bit is as follows. In real wagons, the horizontal members of the stake sides should be on the inside, placing them in compression against the vertical posts. On a real wagon, the bolsters are typically inboard of the vertical post, the post on the outside edge of the wagon. In this arrangement, the bolsters are under the horizontal members, conserving floor space.
The famous Ackermann prints of the LMR invert the members. They show the vertical posts inside the horizontal members. This means any attaching bolts will be in tension, which is a far weaker arrangement than is the above paragraph. The horizontal members would be on the outside edge of the wagon, the posts inboard of the horizontal members. Ackermann does not show any bolsters, but clearly any stake side wagon would have them.
This leaves me in the unfortunate position of placing the bolsters outboard of the posts, to properly conserve floor space, as would be the outcome of any arrangement.
As you may deduce, I am troubled by this inversion.
Bee
-
Looking good.
Thank you!
Bee
Coronation Scot Carriage lights
in General Discussion
Posted
Atom
Do you have the restaurant car with the lighted tables? That looked particularly fetching in video reviews.
Also, to confirm for Red Sea Eagle, no switching, just on.
Bee