What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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Hornby Head of Brand must be aware of the enduring market power of Rocket. Hornby Head of Brand should also be aware of the continued call for LMR carriages and locomotives.
Hornby would be well advised to stop looking at 1980's artwork. Those stamps are inspirational but do NOT match contemporary period artwork. Period artwork exists in abundance.
Hornby Head of Brand should not confuse the demand for proper Era 1 kit; with the poor sales performance of Era 1 rolling stock, rolling stock based upon 1980's stamps.
Bee
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/lmr-early-locos-370420
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forumstephensons-rocket-royal-mail-coach
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/lmr-range-as-individual-items-337872
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/planet-patentee
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/locomotion-no1
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/lmr-mail-coach
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/locomotives-at-the-start-of-railways
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/stephensons-rocket-29245
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For the LMR, I would add Twin Sisters, Caledonian, and Experiment. All of these were odd in one way or another and would add amazing visual interest.
Of course, Patentee and Planet are better known. Liver, being a Bury locomotive, is certainly a good choice as well.
The Rocket class locomotives, Northumbrian et al, are a simple tweak to existing tooling. The cylinders are lower and the smokebox is slightly different, but all and all, quite straightforward. Like making Tiger from Lion.
Tenders should add the transitional, type 2 We have Rocket's barrel (type 1) and Lion's purpose build (type 3), but not the metal box on utility wagon (type 2).
Bee
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6 years to go before the 200th Anniversary of the Rainhill Trials
1829 = 2029.
The locomotives. Novelty, Perseverance, San Pariel and of course, Cycloped.
Details in this thread:
https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/200th-anniversary-rainhill-trials-1829-2029-328559
Special note that R60164 are the carriages used at the Rainhill Trials.
Bee
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Sam
If your dad wants a train set, you really only have a few choices, to wit: Diesel, Steam or Electric. I would suggest you ask him that question. The type will be a preference. Make sure you get that correct.
As to controllers, I use the Gaugemaster. It works smoothly and quite well. You do not have to get the top of the line. The single track "Combi" will be more than sufficient to drive any Hornby train set.
And for what it is worth, you are a good son to do this. I am sure he will be thrilled!
Bee
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Sammy
If it is any consolation to you, the error you encountered happens in the real world too.
Recently, an official signed off on new railcars that would not fit through a tunnel on their system. https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2023/02/spain-spends-258m-in-trains-that-dont-fit-through-its-tunnels/
I worked at a facility that manufactures locomotives. My personal friend was a mechanical engineer who specified the design of those locomotives. He related to me that one time, after the design had been signed off by the client (Egypt as I recall), he noticed that the structure gauge would be violated. After the kerfuffle of telling a foreign official that he just made a huge financial and technical error, the problem was quietly fixed. So not as bad as the Spanish one.
I agree with NTPNTPNTP. Fix the layout. You cannot really change locomotive design as we did. But you can fix the track.
Bee
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Hello Sammy
I think what you are saying is that you have left insufficient clearance to permit locomotives and cars to pass each other on a curve.
There are a few solutions to this.
You can widen the clearance between tracks on the turn. You can make the turn single line working. You can switch to shorter locomotives and rolling stock, in OO, such that the swept envelope is smaller. You could start the turn slightly earlier on the inside line, thus separating the two.
While switching to HO may provide some relief, longer HO stock will still sweep a larger envelope.
The simplest solution, in my view, is to make the turn a restricted area. Reduced speed, single line working. Treat it like a real railway.
Bee
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Hi ThreeLink
Synthetic ultramarine was developed in the 1820s and is our likely candidate. I sincerely doubt that natural ultramarine was used to paint the 2nd class carriages, given the extraordinary expense of it. That just seems too extravagant for the LMR, with no return on investment. Telling a passenger to find a blue or yellow carriage does make sense.
Now as to the part of a railway carriage sitting in your garden? Would you share a picture?? Wow!
Bee
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The LMR Livery is not precisely known. We have hints and clues. We do have some ledger books. But the matter is subject of quite a bit of speculation.
Aquatint Drawings
But Bee, I hear you say, what of all those fabulous drawings and aquatints preserved? Don't they show us the livery?
Frankly, no. Colored views were produced from etched plates and then water colors were added by a low skill painter at the book publisher. The etched line part remained consistent, while the colors tended to vary.
An example of this are the Royal Mail carriage illustrations. The LMR had a grand total of 5 of these carriages, ever. Hornby has this carriage in R3956
We can be fairly certain that these are all Royal Mail. The line drawings are fairly consistent, the outlier being bottom left, where the trailing compartment isn't sloped, but does have the distinctive guard. Yet the livery is all over the map! Fundamentally, a Kaleidescape of color!!
So what do we know?
We have the Edge Hill Locomotive Works, the LMR's own locomotive manufacturing plant, but only after it came into existence, some years after the LMR opened. I would suggest that the colors are likely consistent with what was present earlier, but there are no guarantees.
The ledgers at EHLW mention that the 1st class glass carriages (for their glass windows) were "chrome yellow"
If you think that this is different from current run 1st class Hornby carriages, you are not wrong. Once again, we suffer from the preserved 1930s carriages.
Ultramarine for 2nd class carriages
Certainly not even close to the blue represented in the reproduction carriages.
Scarlet Lake for the Royal Mail
with black panels. In the Kaleidescape image above, the accepted correct livery is center left. Crest on the center door and letters on first and last.
At last, we come to locomotives. The color mentioned in the EHLW ledgers was chrome green.
Black was used on the metalwork or possibly just raw wrought iron.
We do know that the number appeared on the buffer beam and on the chimney in white. While no image records the font or locations, a letter exists which references the number scheme.
Over these colors, a varnish would have been applied as a protectant. Rather than the modern pheonelic resins which are crystal clear, the LMR would have used a natural varnish, giving a brown tint or wash over the color.
Rocket was recorded as "yellow", I am unaware of any further refinement. Further, there is a several year gap after Rocket and before EHLW. The Ackermann aquatints do suggest many of the early locomotives were green, with black lining (bands?). Bronze work simply varnished.
Again, be very mindful that aquatints are hand colored at the publisher by low skill artists.
Bee
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Hi 81F
Spectacular!
Might we have a few other views?
FWIW, the pinpoints are hardly noticeable in this view. It is such an oddball wagon that the pinpoints could be a design feature, part of the original intent
Bee
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Hello Ducking Giraffe
If the contest is to be measured by how closely the model resembles the prototype, then you have absolutely met that criteria. I studied the image to be sure what I was observing. The prototype or the model?
Mission accomplished, well done lad!
Hi BulleidBoy
Heck no. It is the arcane approval system that is at root cause of the issue. You responded to one (of many). How were you to know which was "the one".
Bee
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Hi Al
Using LT&SR_NSE's steps noted just above, Sam is performing step 3 on video. Step 3 being constructing the kit. Step 2 is making the parts of the kit, step 1 designing the kit. I'm still at step 1.
Sam has produced a few videos of step 1 and step 2, but in general, has shown step 3. His model of Copperknob comes to mind, as well as a number of others like the propeller driven locomotive.
My take away from the video recommended was the mention of printed resin gears and the construction of the gear box. Printed gears have mixed reviews in PLA, they tend to shear apart. It will be interesting to see the longevity of Sam's resin gears, but that data is unlikely to be shared.
My intention is metal gears, and I note that Shapeways claims printed metal gears. That would be in step 2, material acquisition. The gears could be hobbed, and there are gear manufacturers for this. I will cross this bridge when I come to it.
Sam does give a sense of what it takes to build a self designed kit. It is what I will be encountering in the future. Of note is that I think I am ready to submit the OO Tender design to Shapeways for manufacture. I will likely learn about all of my design errors very soon.
Thanks for the heads up. It is appreciated.
Bee
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Hello TVR
I looked this up and as such, is not my opinion, rather, it is a fact you may verify on your own
Asbestos was fully banned in the UK in November 1999. The ban made it illegal to buy, sell, import or export any asbestos containing materials.
Therefore, in my opinion, if your controller manufacture post dates 1999, then there is no need for any concern whatsoever regarding asbestos.
Bee
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Edit: Rob and I typed at the same time, just for clarity!
Hello 96RAF
I'm not sure of your description.
Did you
1) Have an existing post, with an image, that you sent for moderator approval? That is, you wanted to edit and add to a post after first submission.
2) Have a post, with an image, that had not yet been submitted? That is, you were still editing and adding prior to first submission.
I have indeed experienced issue 2. Mostly my own fault, but the behavior of the web page directly contributed. The web page keeps a local copy of your submission. As you add each character, the text is bounced to the server and back. This is why images really slow down the process, all the bytes in the image must be bounced as well. Leaving the page, for any reason whatsoever, loses you local copy and, since the server does not maintain a copy, your data is lost.
It is the "leaving the page" part that is the culprit. Page forward, page back are the common causes, but if you are signed in temporarily AND the expiration of time arrives, then your page will be refreshed and your data lost. Any glitch in the cosmos will do it.
Bee
Do moderators approve their own images? Or must you wait like us commoners, until another moderator comes along?
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Hello Colin
Permit me a moment to express my condolences regards the death of your wife.
While we may not have been aware of the dangers of asbestos long ago, we certainly are now.
Thank you very much indeed for the alert.
Bee
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Hi LT&SR_NSE
Welp, that explains why I couldn't find it. Not once did the word copyright, or copyrighted appear in the text.
Thank you for drawing that to my attention.
Bee
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Hello Kim
It is extremely unlikely that anyone would pursue a copyright infringement claim against a non-commercial post by enthusiasts.
Further, while it may have eluded me, I can find no specific rules about using copyrighted images in a post.
Hornby has let us know that their images are copyrighted.
Bee
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I grabbed the Hornby Turbomotive side elevation image and on it, superimposed the Railway Magazine's illustration.
Atom, it is nearly a perfect match!
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I searched and searched, but never found a boiler diameter for Turbomotive. I could identify the boiler as "LMS Type 1".
The 1935 Railway Magazine dimensioned drawing may explain why there is no "diameter". It appears to be conical, not cylindrical. Perhaps you can scale the boiler diameter at various points
Bee
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While I was investigating another issue, I just happened to notice this vertical boiler locomotive in
Nouveau Manuel Complet des Machines a Vapeur¹ ;Jean Louis Janvier 1838.
In light of the interest shown with some other vertical boiler engines, I thought to bring it forward here.
Janvier, sadly, does not tell us which railway utilized this engine.
Figure 97 shows us the side elevation.
The chimney has a spark arrestor. I think the front of the locomotive is to the right, the hook on the left to draw carriages and wagons being the giveaway. The pistons are mounted vertically and there appears to be a gear (!) peeking out of the frames.
Figure 98 shows us a top view
There are three (!) pistons. The driving axle has two gears on it. Note that the driving axle is not a cranked axle.
Figure 99 is a sectioned elevation view.
I found this most interesting, as it shows the internal arrangement of a vertical boiler. The internal steam dome is superheated by the flue which surrounds it. The boiler tubes work like any other steam locomotive, yet the arrangement deserves a bit of study. Note the horizontal tube to take steam from the steam dome and the diagonal tube returning exhausted steam to the chimney, proving to be the blast tube. Further, we see that the gears below the pistons and the gears on the main axle mesh, making this a gear driven (!) locomotive. The regulator control crank is shown on the footplate (right, about mid boiler high).
Figure 100 is a plan section.
Note the boiler tubes. We can see the gears and the main axle. That makes perfect sense.
And then I am completely confused by the crank. I expected three crank webs, 120° apart. I see three crank webs, but not at 120°. It looks quartered.
I do suppose I am asking too much. Janvier presents us with other drawings which have some issues. An example would be a bell crank locomotive we saw earlier, which could not function as drawn by Janvier. Is this another copy of a plagaristic copy, in which the mechanical detail is lost? I do think so.
Yet the details of an 1838 vertical boiler are fairly interesting, making this worth a look
Bee
¹New Complete Manual of Steam Engines
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Hello Yelrow
You aren't missing a thing.
A retailer will often associate a slower moving item with a holiday.
That is, the reason for the sale is that Hornby has noticed these two sets are leaving the warehouse just a bit slower than expected. They looked around, and decided to associate the sets with Christmas. This sale actually has little to do with Christmas.
If it moves product, Hornby reduces inventory. Sure, the profit margin may be a bit smaller, but some money is better than no money with dead inventory in the warehouse.
Do not expect there to be a Christmas Miracle and you will not be disappointed. There is little motivation on Hornby's part to discount pre-orders. Any Hornby production cost savings will be pocketed to offset the less than stellar performance of these two sets.
Bee
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A screw reverser adjusts the stroke and timing of a slide valve. Turbomotive had a turbine. Therefore, a screw reverser makes little sense.
Bee
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No offense taken Atom. Yours was a reasonable question. My hope is that the question was reasonably answered.
In the Turbomotive discussions, a correspondent has expressed that a screw reverser was never installed on LMS6202. That makes perfect sense, a screw reverser adjusts the stroke and timing of a slide valve. Turbomotive had a turbine. Not a slide valve. This detail was improperly added by the Hornby designer, perhaps due to economic or schedule pressure on that designer. Maybe the designer just didn't think it through.
My OO Planet will have things as correct as I can help it. I haven't any pressure to go fast. I am thinking it through and explaining what I can of that here, as LT&SR_NSE suggests. Documenting the details.
Bee
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You have it exactly right LT&SR_NSE. You just missed a few thousand steps 😉
Hello Atom
You have asked a perfectly valid question. Exactly what is going on here, and why is the man taking an eternity to get to the point?
Firstly, I have never designed a OO model before. I have, consequently, fallen into every trap and pitfall along the way. If there is a blunder to be made, you can rest assured I will manage to find it, the hard way. Example: Thinking I could make the sandwich frames full scale and then just shrink it. Whoops. Err, no.
Secondly, I am quite sure that all of us have experienced the wait. The wait for a Hornby RTR model. The experience of designing my own has given me an appreciation for the tribulations Hornby goes through. It takes time. I shall never complain about the wait, ever again.
Thirdly, I am a retired Engineer. I will therefore apply the discipline I learned though of decades of experience. Critical lessons in rework suggest that you want the design to work from end to end, before you make a single part. I rushed ahead with the Newman Miniatures tender, an error.
Fourthly, I have a genuine interest in the details of how things work. So the minutia of what a lever on the tender does fascinates me. Just as the controls on Planet's footplate do. Understanding each element takes time. The preserved drawings are difficult to read and understand. There aren't any isometric views. I can't ask the designer any questions. But in the end, I now have a deep appreciation for Planet's details.
I am not in a rush to complete this project. I could have just purchased Newman Miniatures Planet, fitted it with the too tall tender, and had it whizzing around my layout. But then the handles wouldn't oscillate, many of the details wouldn't be there, and I would not have the sense of accomplishment.
I do get it. This is taking a long time. Far longer than I had anticipated. My intention is to build a model. I just haven't arrived at that step yet.
Bee
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Hello 81F
Yes, Newman Miniatures on Shapeways is where I purchased my 'too tall for OO Planet' tenders from. The tender he designed is a very good match for Lion. The models are scaled up N scale models, somewhat adjusted for the OO squish. I think they are perfectly fine. Based on Newman Miniatures design of the tender, I would think the other models on offer to be pretty good too.
When I asked the gentleman to quote some design changes, I realized that I would be better suited just doing it myself. Nothing against the gentleman at Newman Miniatures at all.
Converting the Hanazono Motor Boggie to DCC looks ever so straightforward. The pickups run up the outside of boggie. Simply cut those leads, run a wire from the cut up to the decoder, and from the decoder to the contacts on top of the boggie, which lead to the motor. A clever lad like you, 81F, shall have no problems with this!
Bee
Would the Royal Set make a good Xmas present
in General Discussion
Posted
Sam
Hornby Dublo is the very top of the mark. Those sets are frankly awesome. As I re-watched JJ's video, I found myself wanting that set, yet completely out of my era, out of my railway. No reason for me to own it, but I want it.
Mate, the set you selected is the bomb!
Rallymatt has it right with TT120. You can fit so much more railway in the same space. All things equal, TT120 is simply better.
Here is a completely unsolicited bit of old man advice. Who doesn't love that, some dottering old man telling you how to live. But here goes: if you want this gift to be a success, participate. Sit there with your Father as it runs. Discuss the point work. Add a new building. Spend some time with him on the advantages of a level crossing. When you look back at Hornby adverts, the theme of Father/Son is recurrent. There is a reason.
Participate Periodically.
Bee