What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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It probably stinks of ashtray.
Keeping it weathered isn't a bad idea. Perhaps the stink can be encapsulated. Yet getting a clear overcoat to adhere to that tar might be tricky.
If it must be cleaned, be aware that the film is a tar like substance. You will need a solvent for that tar, otherwise you will be scrubbing so vigorously that the transfers are guaranteed to be destroyed. Naphtha is a solvent for many tars and would be my first choice. There are lesser solvents, like white spirits, acetone and cellulose thinners.
The problem? I cannot be sure that naphtha is safe for the plastics the undercarriage and the body are made of. Some plastics are fine with naphtha, others? Not so much. Nor can I be sure that delicate transfers won't be damaged.
I'm with Potterton. It looks weathered. Perhaps keep it that way.
Bee
Edit: I zoomed as far as I could in on the "transfers". I could not see any transfer edges. Now it could be an image artifact, but "Smiths" "crisps" & etc look all the world like stamped paint. Are they really transfers????
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The jolliest seasons greetings to you as well Alberto!
Bee
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Brew Man
You need to stop bottling up your feelings and let us know how you really feel.
Bee
and for those who didn't detect the subtle sarcasm....not subtle anymore. 🙂
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I thought to see how my new LMR sheep wagon looked loaded.
6 sheep come with R60165, but this really is far too few sheep. 3 double decked wagons means I must populate 6 floors. The provided 6 sheep yield one per floor. That is simply not enough.
The LMR originally charged 8d/sheep, but later moved to a flat charge per wagon of £1, or ~30 sheep. Although correct, I was not sure I could pack 30 into a wagon. I purchased 1 pack of R7122 Sheep, 10 sheep, in order trial populate 1 wagon. Total sheep on hand: 16.
For the sheep to stand in the wagon, it is clear that the sheep need to be glued down. I did not want to glue the sheep directly to the wagon floor. Non-reversable without damage.
Using a piece of thin wood veneer, I cut two rectangles 57mm × 21 mm. The wood veneer will look the part without much effort. The size fits comfortably within the wagon when assembled. I then applied some gel cyanoacrylate to each hoof and placed some sheep on the wood veneer. I got 7 sheep to fit reasonably per floor. There is room, I may try more sheep in going forward.
With the glue dried and the sheep adhered, I placed them inside and clipped the wagon back together, making sure the wood veneer floor wasn't trapped.
From 3 feet away, by eye, they look every bit the part. Here is a close up, compare to the period image.
And in comparison to an unloaded wagon.
I am quite happy! Further, I now know how many sheep I need to populate a full rake of sheep wagons!
Bee
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I do hope Andy sees that. Putting "Mecanno 612 plug" into Google brings you right to vendors who have that part in stock, to manuals and to Mecanno communities he may enjoy
Bee
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Hi Alberto
I conclude from your translated introduction that next year is the anniversary of sixty years of fun!
You remember that first set so vividly. One gift from Father set you on a lifetime journey.
I am happy that the forum includes folks who just want to have some fun. Maybe that's all of us?
Bee
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Andy
After digging around for awhile, I finally have some Mecanno part numbers for you.
Mecanno 611 Plug is as ntpntpntp shows in that ebay listing. Here assembled
Mecanno 612 Plug is, in my view, the better connector.
With these part numbers, it may be easier to find replacement parts.
Bee
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Hello Andy
Whilst I could not find any direct information about the connectors for the Mecanno power supply, I do think I have a solution for you.
Banana plugs come in 3mm, 4mm, 5.5mm & etc.
Would it not be very straightforward to simply get a few larger sizes than 3mm and trial them?
Bee
Edit: to be more scientific, with the power off, measure the diameter of the hole of the female connector. Get the next size up banana jack (male) to get moderate compression.
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Hi Rallymatt
I gave the latitude and longitude as a way of helping others to find the location.
The street view from there is interesting to me. Firstly, you can see the curve. From a prototypical railway perspective, wow, Holy Tight Radius indeed! Secondly, it gives me the view I'd like to have on my LMR layout. Bucolic fields, stone walls and clumps of trees are what I imagine much of what the railway passengers saw. It is the view down the dirt road.
Another thing of note. The red dot on the map from 1877 is the exact spot the recent images are taken from. Same dirt road. Same Gotham Curve.
Bee
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N53°7'23.23" W1°43'15"
Try as I might, I could not find Wayne Manor in the area. Those coordinates place you on a path, crossing the Gotham Curve.
Perhaps you can spot the Bat Cave! 😉
Bee
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Using the same methodology as I did for the curve at Wapping Tunnel:
The map in this instance is "Derbyshire XXXIII.NW". Find the curve on the map. Gotham Curve is conveniently located at Gotham.
With the curve located, place a circle on the curve, yellow. Then, place horizontal and vertical diameter lines of that circle.
Next, using the scale of the map, place it to read the number of chains. I get close to 2½ chains.
We know the answer should be 2½ chains, from other references. I think the map analysis agrees.
Bee
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Hello ModelerXYZ
I checked and re-checked. Under description, on the Wikipedia page, it says 55 yards, [50 meters] for the Gotham Curve
Now it absolutely is possible that the Wikipedia page is wrong, and the dimension really is 50 feet. I
really have no way to confirm the unit, other than by the Wikipedia page.UK Government website states 2½ chains (55 yards)
Bee
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Can someone explain why Model Master fell so far behind? Did he experience a serious illness? Jailed? Overwhelmed by volume? Why?
Bee
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Hello 81F 👋
PayPal expects the seller to ship upon payment. Unlike the shop who took payment for my sheep and horse wagons and then sat on my money for 1½ years.
To encourage shipment, PayPal wants sellers to include a tracking number to a package, a package sent to the buyer's registered address with PayPal. The package must go to that address, not to freight forwarders.¹
When a buyer cancels for non-shipment, a fee is incurred for the seller, just as Yelrow points out. The penalty is taken directly out of the seller's account with PayPal. So instead of a 'no sale' with a £0.00 transaction, there is a net negative against the seller's gross. That is a harsh message to a business. Model Master responded by stating "No PayPal".
The seller can cancel upon receipt without penalty. However, the minute the vendor accepts payment, the meter starts.
Bee
¹A lesson I found out when I tried to do exactly that for some spare parts from a well known spares house. Further, when I attempted to set up another PayPal account with the freight forwarder's address, PayPal kicked it out because the address did not match my credit card.
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Hi Atom
In 1842, Francis Whishaw published The Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, Practically described and illustrated. Naturally he described the LMR. In that description, he states "The quickest curve is between the River Irwell and Ordsall Lane, being of about a quarter mile of radius." Odd choice of word to a modern ear, quickest. Clearly, Whishaw does not include the 'quickest' curve at Wapping Dock, possibly considering it dock shunting and not part of the mainline.
1 mile = 63,360 inches
¼ mile = 15,840 inches
In OO (76.2) = 207.874 inches
Convert to mm = 5280 mm (R75?)
A perfectly round tail chaser layout will require 11×11 meters. Even Pete Waterman may have an issue!
Bee
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Hello LT&SR_NSE
Thank you for that note. I do appreciate it.
I avoid, like the plague, anything related to the cost or 'value' of an item. I find that so dependent on a person's budget, that any conversation or review of 'value' is meaningless. My view of price or value tells the reader more about my budget than the item.
Bee
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I have found further information about the livestock station above. I found a 1:1056 or 5 feet to 1 mile depiction of the livestock station, which affords us a 10× better view than before. We can see both rails of 1 track at this scale. Surveyed in 1848, published in 1851.
In this map, individual buildings are labeled and I can clearly see that I have erred. What I considered to be the livestock sidings are in fact the Ordsall Lane Works. The Ordsall Lane Works handled engine repairs at the Manchester end of the line.
Clearly marked are engine sheds, engine pits, a smithy and the Coke Shed office.
But just across the tracks, on the north side of the mainline, we can see the Pig Station and Cattle Yard. This is strictly on a siding, not the mainline. The livestock station is found!
Note that the Pig Station only has chutes to load/unload on one side of the track. Similarly, cattle would load/unload on one side of the track, or perhaps through a chute at the pig station. While an area is not denoted for sheep, it is reasonable to assume sheep were moved through the livestock station as well.
My thought is that unless the livestock station near Liverpool arranged its chutes on the other side of the track, there would be no reason to have sheep wagon doors on the opposite side. That is, only one side of pig, cattle or sheep wagons would have a gate or door. No need for a door that gets no service.
Bee
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Hello Anglia
JJ has it just about right.
Canal Studios owns the copyrights to both films, something Hornby failed to license. Hornby then tried to say "inspired by" but that was inadequate. Hornby was forced to retract and cancel both items
I had Lady with a Lamp R30094 on order, as it was Lion with 3 glass carriages. It was summarily canceled.
If you want the Titfield Thunderbolt set, then get the one from Rapido.
I suspect we may see Lady with a Lamp back in the catalog in the future.
Those R numbers are no longer valid.
Bee
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Hi SoTriangman
Absolutely no surprise the he has taken it back off the market. Bullied Boy has an order outstanding from 2 years ago. A purchaser would have to make good on that order, but the payment is long gone
Essentially, the purchase of the business is a two year backlog of liability. The purchaser not only gets that, but a poisoned well of customer goodwill as the cherry on top.
The only way to sell the business now is piecemeal: the patterns, intellectual property and any machines. Open up under a new establishment, unconnected with the current business. That's a firesale. Perhaps pennies on the pound.
Result: "not for sale"
Bee
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1½ years after paying a retailer for Hornby's OO LMR Sheep Wagons, they have finally arrived, along with OO LMR Horse Wagons and R7122 OO Sheep. I will not let my disappointment in the un-named vendor color my review.
HISTORICAL DEPICTIONS
I would like to begin at the beginning. Henry Booth was the Treasurer and Managing Director of the LMR. He wrote a book, published in 1830, titled "An Account of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway ....", which included a plate illustrating rolling stock.
Dead center on that plate was a double decked sheep wagon. Note the position of the doors, on the ends of the wagons, not the sides
That must have been a proposal sketch, as the first sheep wagons were ordered by the LMR in May of 1831, some time after Booth's account was published. A total of 19 double decked sheep wagons were ordered, divided among 3 vendors.
The Ackermann long prints depict several consists. In the goods (freight) consists, we can see the double decked sheep wagons.
In this print, please do take a moment to note the length of the passenger carriages and the goods wagons. It isn't just your eye, goods wagons were a few feet shorter than passenger carriages.
Zooming in, note the positions of the doors. Two per level on one side. It has been suggested by others that the doors were repeated on both sides, but careful examination of each wagon's depiction does not show doors on both sides.
Bury, Colored Views of the LMR, depicts a sheep wagon, in 1833. As per Booth, doors on the ends, not the sides.
Crane depicts one, doors on the side.
Moreau depicts one, doors on the ends. Moreau's image is plagiarized, based on other images he also presents. There are a few other derivative depictions. Arthur Freeling shows one, doors as per Ackermann. Austen shows two sheep wagons, but the image is so poor, I cannot make out doors. There could be doors, I just cannot be sure. Freeling and Austen images are obvious plagarism. I mention these just for completeness.
20TH CENTURY DEPICTIONS
With period depictions complete, I present 2 stamps, published on the 150th anniversary of the LMR, created in 1980. There are other anniversary stamps.
Ordinarily, I would never bother the forum with non-period depictions, but the relevance of these stamps to the review will become evident. Take a look at the color of the curtains on the Booth Carriage on the stamps, and then look at Hornby R30090. I'd say that's a match. Take a look at the sheep wagons on the stamps. Where are the doors? There are none. That matches R60165, but not any period sheep wagon illustration. Now my supposition is that Hornby used the stamps as source material, not actual period illustrations. In particular, for R30090, the Booth Carriage roof racks follow the stamps, not the actual Booth illustration. I think there are far too many "coincidences" to draw any other conclusion.
WHAT ABOUT CARRIAGE LENGTHS
I can accept that Hornby used a common chassis for all LMR rolling stock. That is a reasonable cost savings and for all but the purists, its a detail simply not worth worrying over. Should the Hornby goods wagons have been shorter? Of course, yes they should have been. But Hornby would not have known this, because they used those stamps! Look at the length of the sheep wagon v the length of the 2nd Blue passenger carriage on the stamp. Now go back and look at the Ackermann print. It should jump off the page at you.
ENOUGH FAFFING ABOUT BEE
I adore them!! The vertical bars are metal. 6 sheep are included with the wagons, identical sheep to R7122. I will draw up a door in FreeCAD, and have the doors 3D printed. Easy enough to glue onto the wagons, and then they will look like Ackermann's depictions. I think they are a wonderful addition to fleet. Quite happy with them. I will be getting more of these.
Are the sheep wagons perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Sure, many models start out with small issues, and those models develop better fidelity with a new issue of the same prototype.
SOME OTHER HISTORICAL DETAILS
The LMR did a good trade in sheep. Before refrigeration, all livestock was delivered live. The hardship of that livestock's walk to the city cut into a farmer's wallet.
Livestock, such as cattle, sheep and pig, did not move between the two cities proper. Livestock needs pasture. So a livestock station was set up in Broad Green, just beyond Edge Hill near Liverpool. Near Manchester, an equivalent was established near Oldfield Lane, in Salford, just outside the city. This feature will be readily added to a layout, sidings and pastures, dotted with sheep, cattle and pig.
(EDIT: The livestock sidings are not as shown. My error. This is the Ordsall Lane Works, the engine shed for the Manchester end of the line. Livestock station is directly across the tracks. See new map in another post below.)
The LMR originally charged for pigs and sheep by the head (8d) but transitioned to a flat charge per wagon, £1. This led to the obvious conclusion, packing in the animals, to their immense suffering. Complaints by the Humane Society of up to 50 animals in a double decker were lodged. Yikes!
There was a single deck livestock wagon for cattle, as well as pig. Oxen were also transported. There was one recorded instance of an elephant being transported!
By 1839, the sheep wagons were in terrible repair and scrapped. The LMR declined to order more, forcing all the livestock trade into single decked wagons
WHAT ABOUT THE HORSE WAGONS?
We do have period depictions. You can see one in the Ackerman long print. The fare for one horse, in 1839, was 14s. £1 for 2 horses, £1.20 for 3. The few horse wagon depictions do show 1 and 2 horse loads.
The same comments about stamps and Hornby apply here as well.
Again, I am pleased with these wagons. Three horses are included with R60166. Further extension of my fleet, with wagons the LMR was known to use. Happy camper, but 3 of these is plenty, as the LMR transportation of horses wasn't exactly roaring. The LMR only ever had 6 of these wagons, 3 on my layout will be plenty.
Bee
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Hello Gnome One
The torque created by the friction of the wheels against rail is insufficient to overcome the internal A4 friction. The internal A4 friction are axles to sleeves, valve gear & etc.
Clean and gently lubricate the A4. The wheels should be clean, as any bump on the wheels will prevent them from rolling, and thus no torque at all.
Bee
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Hello Rallymatt
A person who admits mistake is much more admirable than a person who will argue the error ad infinitum rather than to admit the mistake.
Well done sir!
Bee
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Rallymatt
Did the 9F have some flangeless driving wheels? 10 flanged wheels & 5 coupled axles on an R4 curve seems ridiculously tight.
With flanges, the locomotive would likely tear the track apart. Our models will just derail. In the real world, the enormous locomotive weight simply pulls the spikes out of cross ties.
Bee
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Hi Three Link
I will begin with the overview. To the left is Edge Hill, to the right is Wapping Docks. Wapping Tunnel, denoted with an orange line, traces the route under Liverpool.
First, I will show Edge Hill environs. Here we see the LNWR / LMR mainline connected to the Edge Hill Station, through the Edge Hill Engine Works and thence to the Moorish Arch. The map itself says "tunnel entrance".
1830s view of this entrance to the tunnel, with the Moorish Arch as the featured architecture.
At the Wapping Dock end of the tunnel, we can see tunnel exit, the curve depicted in the lithographs and the LNWR Goods Terminus.
The entirety of my assertion now hangs on the interconnection under the Goods Terminus building.
In order to answer the question, I will switch to a larger scale map. Where before, the scale was 6 inches/mile, this new image is at 5 feet/mile, or 10× the resolution.
At this scale, we can see individual rail. That is, we see both rails of 1 track. We can observe individual turntables & etc. I have placed orange lines, showing the obvious interconnection. This image shows more tracks than the previous image, it was updated in the 1860s. Business must have been good. I would argue that that the rail that connects in the 1860s likely connected decade earlier.
And there I leave it. Hornby said my OO LMR models will go around 2nd radius curves. So did the prototype!!
Bee
Help needed finding a photo of an early GWR ROD 2-8-0 loco in original condition
in General Discussion
Posted
I looked at many ROD images, in the hope that I could possibly spot the locomotive 81F is looking for. My search criteria was a tender which had ROD #### obviously painted over. Nothing yet...
I did notice these on a few:
What are these things? Looks to be a steam connection and possible an electrical output, but clearly, I haven't a clue. Is this the Westinghouse pump?
Bee