What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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The notable exception is R60164 Coal Wagons. They do have a different chassis. The one outlier so far.
Bee
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Hi Aussie Fred
The chassis for all of Hornby's LMR rolling stock is one design. Doesn't matter if it is the first class yellow, second class blue or any of the freight wagons. All the same, just a different color!
I intend to replace the supplied floor of the flatbed with my 3D printed floor, keyed to receive the bolsters.
Bee
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Hi Aussie Fred
Algebra tells me there is an issue somewhere in the numbers.
For the "17mm coupling" Hornby states the 17 mm is between the pocket faces. So the length of two couplings = 2*17mm = 34mm. In order to get 17mm, 8.5 mm of each individual coupling must be in each pocket. Face to face = 34mm - 8.5mm - 8.5mm = 17 mm
So far, so good.
You measure the "20 mm couplings" at 18.88. So two couplings = 2*18.88mm =37.76mm. Using the same 8.5 mm as above, Face to face = 37.76mm -8.5mm - 8.5mm = 20.76mm
20.76 mm is not equal to 20 mm
This means either the "20 mm couplings" measure 18.5 mm by your original method; OR the face to face distance will actually be 20.76mm, not 20mm.
A minor dilemma indeed, made into a mountain by my CDO. That's the same thing as OCD, but all the letters are arranged alphabetically (joke, I do not have OCD).
Bee
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With the very attractive price on flatbed wagons, I ordered a few sets about 8 business days ago. They have arrived and I must say, the packing job was superlative. They were bundled up in a cocoon of bubble wrap
Here is a flatbed wagon apart. Since there are no instructions or exploded parts diagram, I was forced to muddle through. Removing the two screws is easy, but the floor would not come out. There are four locking tabs which engage the chassis. Slide a razor blade horizontally betwixt the chassis and floor and gently prise each corner up, releasing the locking tab.
The floor was swiftly reverse engineered into FreeCAD, so that the new design will meet the existing chassis.
I will start with the Livestock Wagon, used for pig and cattle. The animals are retained on the wagon with stake sides or fence sections.
With the four stake sides sketched, I encountered the tricky bit. I want them to work as they would on a real wagon. Wagons use bolsters, a stub vertical member. Straps are used to receive the post of the stakes.
After quite a bit of fiddling around, I finally realized that bent copper wire would act just as the straps on an actual bolster.
Here is the Livestock with two stake sides removed
A close up of the bolster with the post in place
And with the post removed.
The bolsters are tabbed into the floor, so they will be on location to within 0.002". The wires around the post have a 0.2mm gap to the post, all around, or ~ 0.016" total tolerance. The posts should easily slide into the bolsters when assembled
I will give this a bit more thought, possibly tweaking a detail or two. Fairly soon, I will have cattle and pig wagons rolling around the layout.
Bee
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Hi Bulliedboy
In the Hornby turntable video of the 2MT, I was struck by how nice the pipework looked on top of the boiler.
Very pretty locomotive indeed.
I hope you enjoyed my little pun!
Bee
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From the description, perhaps something in the gear train is slipping.
That is, with no restricting friction on the wheels, loco in craddle, the wheels will turn. The moment there is some restriction, loco placed on track, the motor turns the gear train without turning the wheels.
Place the loco back in cradle. With the slightest of touch on the driving wheels, look for slippage. DO NOT USE TREMENDOUS FORCE.
Bee
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Underneath that beautiful shell is a vacuous void. That is too empty. Boom, hiss, I'll be here all night!
Is that the new 2MT?
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Hi Three Link
White Spirit is a naphthenic oil, sometimes known as Stoddard's Solvent, Mineral Spirit or Mineral Oil. A slightly more refined distillate, in the same family, is naphtha.
From my wooden boat building days, naphtha will dissolve (is a solvent for) dried asphalt.
No surprise that it would attack some plastics, as there are many formulations of plastic.
By the way, 3 in 1 contains <3% Naphtha.
Bee
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Hi Three Link
You may very well be correct.
The Parkside facilities underwent a series of improvements and modifications. Indeed, in 1839, an entirely new station was built to the east of the spur in the map. This is the primary reason I show the location with a red arrow, so as to not be confused.
There is also the usual undercurrent of plagarism and artistic license to contend with.
The other day, I got very excited. I thought I had located a small bridge constructed by Vignoles for the St Helens and Runcorn. The St Helens and Runcorn, you will recall, constructed the "Intersection Bridge" over the LMR. One of those tiny, "underpass through an embankment" bridges. The photograph showed a single cart wide construction, tucked away down a path in the woods. Alas, while on the line, it was a late 1800s construction, not original and certainly not Vignoles.
Bee
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Bob
In addition to the main engine works at Ordsall and Edge Hill, the LMR maintained a watering facility at Parkside. The tiny LMR locomotives could not make the entire 31 mile journey without refilling midway.
On Opening Day, Member of Parliament Huskisson was run over by a locomotive at Parkside. The LMR erected a memorial close to the spot, which remains there to this very day. As such, the location of Parkside station in the images to follow is known. You may see it here
There are two images of Parkside. In chronological order, the first by Bury
The second by Colyer
I think the small building appears in both images, with Colyer getting the roof line different. Both provide unique and fairly trustworthy views of the LMR, so I am puzzled by that detail.
Both images include refill spigots for filling tenders. That main chimney is present because the LMR filled tenders and locomotives with hot water, decreasing locomotive down time. Hot water was provided by the LMR at Liverpool, Manchester and Parkside. Inside the shed, under the main chimney, we can observe a locomotive. This gives a great view of how Engine Shed doors were constructed.
Additionally, I think the small building in both images is the passenger station. Unlike the grand station at Lime Street in Liverpool, or the grand station at Hunt Street in Manchester, the Parkside Station is well suited to reasonably sized layout. You will not need 11 feet for the platforms!
The locomotive in the Bury image is a Rocket Class, although I cannot tell which one. It is pulling a first class train, consisting of glass / yellow carriages. The locomotive in the Colyer image is a Planet Class, again, I cannot say which one. The guard seated on the carriage is the signal man, who provides information to the guard on the last carriage to apply the brake. The guard in the image merely relays the engineman's command without applying his brake.
Bee
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Hello Bob
There are no contemporary photographs of the LMR, as the LMR preceeded photography! You will occasionally encounter an image of persons who were associated with the LMR, but these were taken much, much later in life, when photography became available.
There were two engine facilities for the entire railway. The first was the Ordsall Lane Works, near Manchester. The other was the Edge Hill Works, near Liverpool. No images of these facilities exist to my knowledge. Yet we do have the track plans of these facilities, from ordnance surveys.
If you want to investigate further, go to the National Library of Scotland web pages and find Ordnance Survey. Be careful of the year of publication. You certainly want near period representations.
Circles on the track are turntables. The LMR used turntables everywhere. ~2 meters in diameter. Just big enough for a locomotive. Not with a tender.
Now as to what the buildings would have looked like, I will present two images. They are clearly associated with the LMR.
The first is titled "Engine Works...Bolton". I believe this to be Rothwell & Hicks, based on the description. Rothwell & Hick made a few locomotives for the LMR, notably Rokeby and Roderick, LMR 59 & 60 respectively.
The second is the Bedlington Iron Works. Bedlington made the wrought iron fishbelly rails for the LMR. Note the large doors permitting entry for locomotives. The scale may be observed by the horsedrawn chaldrons in the image. Note, you can zoom these images.
I submit that Ordsall Lane and Edge Hill would look similar. Non descript multi story with a peaked roof, and certainly not purpose built for function. Large chimneys for iron work. Combine the track plans with the building types and you may get close to what the first part of your question was, to wit: engine works on the LMR.
About stations: Did you want passenger or freight?
Bee
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The MSDS for 3 in 1 is readily available. Its primary constituent is naphthenic oil, a distillate of natural hydrocarbons.
Labelle oil for model railways also has an MSDS available. The primary constituent is paraffinic oil, a different distillate of natural hydrocarbons than naphthenic oil.
Both naphthenic and paraffinic oils encompass a broad range and do not represent a specific hydrocarbon.
Bee
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That is simply a beautiful locomotive Alberto. I like it!
Bee
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Hello Robert
Ask away! Anything at all about the LMR.
Always happy to share what I know. And if I don't know (it happens) I will tell you. Probably look it up to extend my knowledge too!
Bee
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Hiya JJ
Fellow of the Royal Society.
The Royal Society is an institution for the sciences. Some very famous scientists were members of the Royal Society.
To get into the Royal Society, a member has to nominate you, and there is a vote by all the members.
It is quite an honor to be inducted into the Royal Society and to become a Fellow.
Bee
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Stave 1: William Brunton's Obituary
The mention of Brunton's obituary brings me to the point of this month's Railway Oddities. There is no doubt that Brunton practiced sound engineering. This must be distinctly understood, or nothing wonderful can come of the oddity I am going to relate.
Stave 2: Early Career.
In 1796, William Brunton became employed by Watt. That Watt, the fellow who has a unit of measurement named after him. Watt had such confidence in Brunton, that Brunton was promoted to the position of Superintendent of the Engine Manufactory, at Watt's Soho Foundry. This position put Brunton into close proximity with Watt. I do hope that James Watt's confidence in William Brunton will dispell any notion of crackpot in what you are about to see. In 1808, Brunton left Soho and joined the Butterley Works, the place where our oddity occurs.
Stave 3: The other players.
George Stephenson. One of the engineers who worked with Stephenson during the 1810s was a fellow named Nicholas Wood. Wood published several editions of an engineering text known as A Practical Treatise of Railway Engineering. The first edition was published in 1825, with several editions to follow, the last to my knowledge in 1854. The tome is filled with data, equations, mechanical drawings, sketches & etc. Editions of the book were translated into other languages. I have seen copies in French and German. The editions are a tour de force by an early participant in the development of railways. Highly recommended to all students of early railways.
Stave 4: The Image
This was published in the 1825 edition of Practical Treatise, Nicholas Wood, Plate 4.
I will begin in the lower right hand corner. You may recognize that image, it is my avatar. My avatar is the yellow circle that appears at the top of my posts. The image depicts Stephenson's Dynamometer. This brilliant device was used by Nicholas Wood and Stephenson to investigate the inhibiting friction of railway wagons. I will cover this device in a future article, but you should understand that this device was instrumental in the development of the railway industry. Its importance cannot be overstated.
In the upper left hand corner, is the Blenkinsop Locomotive. Blenkinsop worked around the adhesion problem, in 1811, by making a cogged railway. The early railway industry was tortured by driving friction and the adhesion of metal wheels on metal rails. The Blenkinsop Locomotive is a very important early railway device.
In the upper right hand corner is the Killingworth Locomotive. You may know this as an early George Stephenson locomotive, a precursor of things to come.
With the importance of the items in this image established, we can finally proceed.
Stave 5: Brunton's Mechanical Traveller
In the top center of the image, taking pride of place, is Brunton's Mechanical Traveller, or as he sometimes called it, "A Horse to go by Steam". This isn't some fanciful or outlandish contraption, look at the items in the illustration that it keeps company with. It was a practical engine that worked the Butterley Gangroad so successfully, that the Newbottle Colliery ordered an engine as well.
This locomotive worked loads uphill, the hill with a gradient of 1 in 36¹, per Brunton. To put this in perspective, the Wapping Tunnel on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway had a shallower gradient of 1 in 48, a slope which could not be serviced by LMR locomotives, well into the 1840s.
Stave 6: The engine that walked!!
Those odd legs in the back were the motive power. The legs propelled the steam engine by pushing it along. Brunton patented this in 1813².
(Reminder, this image, as all my images, can be zoomed.)
The boiler is a return flue type, with the firebox and chimney at the same end of the locomotive. The boiler itself was of wrought iron, 5 feet 6 inches long, 3 feet in diameter. The weight, per Brunton was 45 cwt (4500 lbs) including water. 3 feet 6 inch gauge when at Butterley Gangroad.
The 6" diameter piston had a stroke of 24 inches. Working pressure 45 psi. The piston rod is at "a". You may observe that when the piston rod extends, the foot at "b" will be forced away from the locomotive, driving the boiler forward. When the piston rod retracts,the foot lifts and is brought forward.
The other leg is wonderful. We have, in Brunton's own hand, a description and sketch of the mechanism³.
Brunton shows us the stationary pinion gear, the piston and the two racks which move in opposite directions, attached to the legs. He has unfolded the mechanism for clarity.
In his patent, Brunton includes a plate, showing the general mechanical arrangement. By the way, unless you manage to figure out the UK's arcane system of early patents, you will probably never see the end or plan view. You will likely only ever see them here, so enjoy!! The stationary pinion gear is fixed horizontally, at the top of the boiler, with the racks parallel to the top of that boiler. As one leg is driving the locomotive forward, the other leg is retracting for the next step, due to the rack and pinion system.
Brunton solved the adhesion problem of metal wheels on metal rails by avoiding it. He used an alternative method. His drawings and patent include various foot arrangements.
A singular pad. Multiple pads at each foot, each free to conform to the surface. Feet with ribbed bottoms. Feet with cogged engagement like Blenkinsop. In fact, anything that would engage the surface.
Stave 7: Empirical tests
(1)Per Brunton, he first determined that the Mechanical Traveller required 84 pounds of linear thrust to drive forward at 2½ mph⁴.
(2) The length of each "step" is 26 inches.
(3) Brunton then tests the horsepower as follows: boiler at 40 to 45 psi; the Mechanical Traveller moving forward at 2½ mph; a chain attached to the rear lifted a vertical weight of 812 pounds at the same rate. From this, Brunton concludes "6 horsepower, or nearly so".
Discussion
(1) Using the standard friction equations, linear force / normal force=84 lbs/4500 lbs = 0.0187 rolling coefficient of friction. Modern steel wheels on rail have a rolling CoF as low as 0.001 up to as high as 0.0025. Brunton, with performance an order of magnitude worse than modern railways, could have benefitted from analysis with Stephenson's Dynamometer.
(2) The piston stroke is specified to be 24" but the length of step is also specified to 26"! This implies there were periods when both feet were off of the ground and the engine coasted, 1 part in 13. The cuff rate may be determined. 2½ mph is 158,400 inches per hour. A step is 26" so 6092.307 steps per hour. 3600 seconds per hour/6092.307 steps = 0.59 seconds/step. Each step is one chuff, inverting yields 1.69 chuffs/second.
(3) There are two components to compute Mechanical Traveller's total horsepower. The first component of the total is the horsepower to move Mechanical Traveller itself.
I obtain 0.559898 HP.
The second component is the useful work done, lifting the 812 pound load at 2½ mph.
I obtain 5.41234 HP.
Add these two components, yielding 5.972 HP. "Nearly so", says Brunton, and I agree, to within 5 parts per thousand. Sound engineering indeed⁵.
Stave 8: Mechanical Traveller No.2
The second Horse to go by Steam was larger, made for Newbottle Colliery, after the success of the first at Butterley Gangroad was demonstrated. Unfortunately, due to the engineman's adjustment of the safety valve, the engine exploded, killing several people. Testimony exists as to the improper use of the safety valve⁶.
Brunton never brought another Mechanical Traveller forward.
Stave 9: A functional model
A few years ago, a modeler made a working model of Brunton's Horse to go by Steam, in ¹/₃₂ scale. I will emphasize that the wheels do not drive this model forward, the legs do.
Here is Adrian's entire play list.
https://youtube.com/@adriansstuff78?si=mK0gfoThDImaQdiI
Just click on "videos" and enjoy the marvel of Brunton's Mechanical Traveller. Adrian goes through the entire build and performs empirical adhesion tests. Well worth any modeler's time.
Stave 10: Merry Christmas!!
This Railway Oddity was presented for your Holiday Enjoyment. You may recognize the initial paragraph as paraphrased Dickens. A paragraph found on the first page of A Christmas Carol (Scrooge). The 'stave' references are in Dickens as well.
Bee
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Notes: For those who care about the tiny details, as if the details given above are not enough.
¹Butterley Gangroad (Crich Railway) had a 1 in 30 or 3.3% gradient.
Newbottle Colliery had 1 in 36 or 2.77% gradient.
²"Method and Machinery for drawing or propelling carriages on roads or railways, by means of certain levers or legs acting alternatively or conjointly upon such roads or upon machinery attached thereto." UK patent 3700, William Brunton, May 22, 1813.
As per usual, a title entirely too long!
³Brunton's handwritten letter
The Science Museum has a handwritten letter, from Brunton to his brother, which contains the patent text and some sketches. This was obviously an attempt to preserve evidence of primacy of invention because, as per the letter, he was deeply suspicious of the individual at the patent office.
⁴Brunton is explicit in stating the velocity at 2½ mph, in more than one instance. Why is that??? James Watt needed to sell his engines. Watt's engines would substitute for horses. What could be a better selling point than comparing his engines directly to horses. To do so, Watt needed to measure the work output of a horse. Watt placed a 100 pound weight at the bottom of a 220 foot well. It took 1 minute, on average, for draft horses to pull it up. Watt allowed 50% for friction. Therefore, his definition of a horse's power became 150 pounds lifted up 220 feet in 60 seconds. 220 feet/60 seconds = 3.666 feet/sec = 2½ mph. Brunton's competition was a draft horse, just as Watt's competition was. Hence the 2½ mph figure of merit.
⁵An engineering statement.
While I obtain 5.97 HP for Mechanical Traveller, this is assumes we can use Brunton's numbers verbatim. There is an essential problem with that assumption. It has to do with weights, measures, resolution, accuracy and traceability. Brunton cannot know his numbers with certainty. The entire horsepower calculation provided by Brunton is an excellent guesstimate. Mechanical Traveller had a velocity around 2½ mph. The thrust to move Mechanical Traveller was around 84 pounds. The friction in the sheave used to lift 812 pounds is ignored. The calculation yields around 6HP. His numbers align with his assessment, but the numbers themselves cannot be relied upon.
⁶Testimony about the boiler explosion.
"…in the North, a propelling engine; it was near Sunderland [Newbottle is close to Sunderland], of a boiler driving waggons; the facts of the case I know to be these, from the engineer [brunton] who made the boiler. – In the first place, they had a smaller boiler to the same engine; that boiler did not generate steam so fast as the engine could expend it, consequently there was never an excess of steam came out of the safety valve, the engine man therefore with impunity screwed down his safety valve; it was never used. The proprietor of the engine [Newbottle Colliery] wishing to have more power, ordered a larger boiler, which had the power of generating nearly double the quantity of steam; this was sent, and a caution given by the gentleman [brunton] not to attach it to the engine till he arrived; but that was not attended to; the boiler was attached to the engine; the man [engineman Wm Sharp, per newspaper accounts] went to work as before, and he screwed down his safety valve, not knowing, that though before he had a deficiency, he now had an overplus; he said he would make a good start of it; the boiler exploded, killed several people, and him among the rest...
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It is often debated that the hobby is dying.
Let me sort that with a bit of arithmetic. I placed an order in February of this year, as well as during the Black Friday sale. Hornby order numbers are sequential. That is, they have no reason to encrypt or otherwise scramble them. Just assign the order number to the orders, in the order received.
When I deduct one order number from the other, I obtain 71,671 orders in 285 days.
That is an order, just to Hornby, every 5 minutes 43.5 seconds. Around the clock. Not just business days or business hours. Not any other manufacturer. Not second hand. Just to Hornby, at list price.
Our hobby has a heck of a heartbeat.
Sorted.
Bee
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Hi Alberto
The view of Trullo Station with the train passing through is very nice indeed!
I know English can be tricky and you are doing very well.
In your note above, you say "my last video". In English, this has the implication to American ears that this is your "final video" with no more videos to follow. When I read "my last video", I think Alberto won't make anymore, that is it, he is done. That is the last video.
I think you mean to say "my latest video", meaning that this is the video most recently produced. When I read that, it says that Alberto has uploaded a new video, and since I like them, I should go take a look!!
I do hope that this small offering meets with your approval. It is offered with the best of intentions and simply to extend your knowledge of English.
Bee
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Hello Simmo009
Did you, by any chance, take pictures of the Hornby display cases? If so, I would certainly appreciate it if you would post them.
Thank you!
Bee
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I examined your linked image in excruciating detail, under the highest magnification possible. This was only limited by the web resolution of a reproduced photograph.
The side of the tender is blank. I can observe features of the engineman's face¹, but no letters of any kind on the side of the tender.
There is a rectangular base under the visible safety valve, implying that there is another safety valve enveloped in the steam discharge. I think I can see another valve in the steam, but perhaps that is merely imagination.
The Westinghouse pump is clearly visible.
Under the engineman's arm is what has every appearance of a GWR number plate. Rectangular, with a raised border. I cannot read the number, but the original photograph will have better resolution than any web presentation. Is it possible to contact the photograph holder?
In other words, that photograph appears to meet all your criteria, less one. To wit: the number.
Bee
¹Example: the engineman appears to have a mustache!
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/50068611688
Your link, 81F, as a hyper link.
I simply copy the text of the desired link into a text editor, and then highlight it. My phone then asks if I would like to see what it links to. Sure, go ahead. Naturally, it brings me to the linked page. I back out of the page, save and then back out of the text editor. Go right back into the text editor and shazam, it is a hyperlink. Select the hyperlink there, copy, paste here.
Android phone.
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Perfect for that industrial line next to the Foundry! Very nice Steve.
I seem to recall that one was to be able to tip the "waste". Hopefully that's still in process
Bee
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I am pleased to report that SWMBO has released the funds for Black Friday flatwagons R60014 times 3. The order is placed, acknowledged by Hornby and "processing" under account status.
Naturally, Hornby suggested other Era 1 wagons, but I gracefully declined. Just the sale items please.
They were on my acquisition list prior to the Black Friday announcement. This simply means I will receive what I wanted, but at a substantial discount. Thank you very much.
Flatwagon to milk wagon, in milk churns:
Flatwagon to cattle wagon:
Flatwagon to pig wagon:
Two flatwagons to log wagon:
It is noted by Whishaw, 1842, that there is a swivel point mounted on each of the bogies to "have proper play in going round curves". Further, logs of up to 50 feet in length were transported this way.
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Thank you 96RAF. Yes, I do enjoy a well executed diagram. That one was a cracker!
81F, you mentioned "no GWR safety valve cover". I take this to mean that there was a ROD safety valve cover, of a different shape?
Bee
3d printed ideas
in General Discussion
Posted
Hi Tony
Everyone goes through a similar learning curve.
What I did was to try a few of the online tutorials at first, where the step by step process is illustrated.
Next I set myself a task, to make a buffer adaptor, such that Lion could propell a few chaldrons around. My goodness. 4 rectangular blocks and some threaded rods to tie it together. It was a struggle, primarily because there was no one to hold my hand. It took forever. I was quite proud when finished.
Nowadays, that buffer adaptor would be quite simple, taking less than an hour from start to finish.
It is unclear if you have selected "FreeCAD" or just some CAD software that is free. If you have selected "FreeCAD", I can help!
The first few projects are the hardest. Stick with it.
You can do this!!
Bee